| || Member || Message |
|ohiogirl12||Posted 05/01/12 06:03PM Changed 05/02/12 09:28PM|
|Have had a lamb about a month. Treated with di methox upon arrival for 6 days. I was told to use 1 tsp di methox to 1 gallon water. I used the soluble powder. Today lamb had diarrhea. Took sample to vet, they said it was coccidiosis. Did I not treat strong enough on arrival? How do I treat now? |
|sheep1||Posted 05/01/12 07:12PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|mrchessie||Posted 05/01/12 07:55PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I highly recommend that you forget the corid. Most every one agrees it doesn't work very well any more in most cases. Ask your vet for the pink stuff. Sulfamethaxozole. Pricy but it works. Get on it before it gets severe and it ruins its guts forever.
|lm1668||Posted 05/01/12 08:11PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Ken, I control coccidiosis every year with Corid and am again this year too. I think most don't know how to use it effectively. It needs to be administered differently than labeled and repeated periodically until a certain age but still a cheap effective method. Once I had it explained to me by my vet I've been able to stay on top of it. Doubt I should give dosage recommendations on here but anyone interested can email me.|
|ARlambs||Posted 05/01/12 08:18PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Marquis, it is the one treatment wonder!|
|lm1668||Posted 05/01/12 08:19PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|With the big price tag.|
|ARlambs||Posted 05/01/12 08:24PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I buy it by the cc, from the vet and treat every lamb with 0.5cc at weaning, works out to 80cents/dose. That is chump change compared to all the other hocus pocus associated with raising club lambs|
|lm1668||Posted 05/01/12 08:27PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|your paying $1.60 per cc ?|
|ARlambs||Posted 05/01/12 08:35PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Ok, my memory was wrong, I went to the file cabinet and found the receipt, it is actually $1.89/cc. So, 90cents per dose. Still not expensive in my mind.|
|DonD1||Posted 05/01/12 08:37PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I talked to Pipevet today on the di methox product. We bought the 12.5% solution and I wasn't impressed with how it was working. I was underdosing.
Their dose 45 cc per 50 lbs day 1, 22.5 cc per 50 lbs day 2-5.
|EmsoffLambs||Posted 05/01/12 08:46PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I personally have found Corid effective. Either mixed as a drench or in the drinking water for older lambs.|
|lm1668||Posted 05/01/12 08:53PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Cindy, I guess I'm confused. First off, we start battling coccidiosis way before weaning and usually are done with it at 3 mos. ,when immune system finally wins. So you don't have problems before weaning. Also, marquis was priced way higher than that to me and I was told that it would not kill full blown coccidia, only prevent an outbreak. |
|ARlambs||Posted 05/01/12 09:15PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|No, typically only had trouble with coccidosis, when we would stress lambs immune system at weaning. I don't get full bloom coccidiosis anymore, cause all lambs are treated before they break. I can send you a copy of the receipt, if you don't believe the price, but I really don't have any reason to make up a fictitious price.|
|belambs2||Posted 05/01/12 09:21PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Can you give the corid treatment in the water if dogs drink out of the same source. I am starting a treatment as we speak and just finished cleaning out all the water buckets and filling them up and adding the dosage. I didn't think about the dogs until I was done. I'm just gonna stand guard and keep the dogs away till I get a response. Lol. Thanks in advance.|
|mrchessie||Posted 05/01/12 09:51PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|So if I read correctly, you are having success as using corid as a preventive or a control but how about for dealing with full blown cocci? I know I dicked around with corid when we had it last June (per my vet's instructions) and it didn't work on the two worse cases. The corid did get it under control for the rest, however.
Ended up getting it under control with the two worse cases with the pink stuff but not before we battled all summer trying to get one to recover completely but she never did (not going to mention the vet bills). Rumen lining must have been torched and we ended up having to get rid of a very nice ewe lamb. For now on, if I have a lamb with it, it's going straight on the pink stuff!
|mikey75||Posted 05/01/12 10:02PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|It's been Marquis for years. Haven't had cocci in many years but, the smell I can still remember. |
|KassiesMom||Posted 05/01/12 10:05PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|What are your thoughts on half a sustain calf bolis? |
|lm1668||Posted 05/01/12 10:05PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Ken, I've got it in the soil bad and deal with it early. Some get full blown bloody stool before I get on it. Not as much any more as I start treatment at 2-3 weeks. If I waited till weaning to treat my lambs they would be significantly behind where they should be, but yes I get positive results with Corid on full blown coccidia (but at a vet recommended dosage). Like I said, I retreat periodically after that to keep it under control.
Cindy, I am not accusing you of anything.
|lm1668||Posted 05/01/12 10:07PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|belambs2, dogs will be fine drinking it.|
|belambs2||Posted 05/01/12 10:13PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Okay thanks Im1668 I can let my guard down now.|
|bigiron59||Posted 05/01/12 10:15PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|do any of you use feed with decox. Far supperior than bovatech. Since we have gone to deccox in ewes 45 days before lambing until weaning and deccox from first feed(creep) all the way through finishing on market lambs.I also have used decoxx in my mineral since has a ramb lamb break on pasture, during breeding season. Have had no problems since getting rid of bovatech.|
|SnarkyArkie||Posted 05/01/12 10:21PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
Sustain boluses will treat it, but 1/2 a blue bolus is only enough to treat a 25#lamb, 1 bolus only treats 50#, they cost $1+ each around here, and the year we had the bad break out it still didn't work, even in combination with Corid. I never want to endure that nightmare again. I have had way better results, treating before they break, that is the key! There is a product called Baycox that can be given to very young lambs, also is to be given before they break out with it though. It is a bit more expensive than the Marquis, more like $1.50/dose. I was so paranoid after the year we had the bad break, I used both Baycox and Marquis! This year, just Marquis worked fine.
|SnarkyArkie||Posted 05/01/12 10:22PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
We have Deccox in both the ewe feed and the creep ration, still had the nightmare year.
|lm1668||Posted 05/01/12 10:23PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|My Show Rite creep that I switched to a couple years back has Deccox but still have to treat lambs every year. Ewes get only corn and supp. pellet. You put deccox in ewes feed? |
|SnarkyArkie||Posted 05/01/12 10:24PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Our last year using corrid, we had $1000's in vet bills, cleaning and sanitation supplies, time of scrubbing everything down top to bottom daily... we were doing that for at least a month and still had lambs that didn't grow right. About to throw in the towel, we tried one last source who turned us on to Marquis. The next year at weaning we gave 0.5cc marquis orally to each lamb at weaning and that was the last we ever saw of it. I was so amazed after that first year that it was that easy. The hardest part was finding a vet that keeps an open tube on hand to sell by the cc.|
|KassiesMom||Posted 05/01/12 10:43PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|You have to know how to use the calf bolis correctly and not crush it. Break it in half and give it with a balling gun. Yes, big lambs need 1 tablet, but 1/2 tablet with another 1/2 tablet in 5 days really has worked wonders for us with small lambs. I find it extremely important to give b complex for a few days following treatment. From my understanding a lot of the on going complications are from the unavoidable depletion of b vitamins from the bacteria. Giving b complex before treating the bacteria could also cause an explosion of bacteria. I have also heard corrid is very hard on lambs and is not recommended. Maybe I have heard wrong. |
|lm1668||Posted 05/01/12 11:05PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Cathy, all I can say about that is that our lambs thrive and receive a lot of Corid. Some of this years 3 mos. lambs are well over 100 lbs. Not saying its the best, easiest, cheapest, only way to go or anything like that. It's just a good, cheap, easy and effective treatment if given properly and giving b complex is a good practice when Corid is used extensively.|
|ARlambs||Posted 05/01/12 11:06PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Sustain is only effective at appropriate dosages, which is 1/50#, so only a pre-weaning age lamb would get a 1/2 bolus, 1 bolus to 50# lamb (weaning age) and a 75# lamb needs 1 1/2 boluses, which is about what a 3mo old lamb weighs. If you are using less than this, you are under dosing, which is how resistance occurs.
I think you are confused, Sustain boluses do not affect Thiamine (B1) uptake, but Corrid does, frequent use of Corrid can lead to thiamine deficiency, which can be deadly if not caught in time.
|jmp||Posted 05/01/12 11:07PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I have had success with corrid but like Lee, I don't go by the reccommendation. You need to be sure though you are giving those lambs a dose of thiamin once during the 5 day treatment. Prevention is the best cure. You can email me for my treatment but probably the same as Lee's.
I don't run mine through the water, not strong enough an waste to much.
Also if you have a creep feed with a high bovatec level it helps as well. Highnoon's creep feeds have 90 grams in them but have the banana coat on it so the lambs dig right into it. The banana coat covers the bitterness of the medication. From my understanding.
|KassiesMom||Posted 05/01/12 11:22PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|ARI......... I am not confused. Cocci eat b vitamins in the digestive tract......thymine..... to be exact. Corridor kills cocci by inhibiting thymine production thus starving the cocci. We allow know how sheep do not tolerate rhyming deficiency well. I am sorry you haven't had luck with the calf bolis in the past. Just keep in mind corrid can be dangerous if not used right or if used too much. The sustained release sulfamethazines are a great option for treating cocci.....JMO.|
|lm1668||Posted 05/01/12 11:25PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|why do you think its dangerous?|
|ARlambs||Posted 05/01/12 11:41PM Changed 05/01/12 11:43PM|
no need to educate me, I have sat through a number of pharmacology and microbiology classes and I am quit capable of understanding how coccidiosis populates, thrives and is treated with a variety of chemotheraputic agents.
As I said above both Sustain and Corrid can be effective, however what our paticular farm encountered was a resistant strain of coccidiosis that was not affected by either agent. We have not had an issue since changing our managment practice to Marquis, it is also less labor intensive which I also prefer.
I was however trying to bring it to your attention that under dosing of any medication will lead to resistance, and eventually make that paticular treatment ineffective.
|ARlambs||Posted 05/01/12 11:48PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|The mechanism by which Corrid works is that it blocks uptake of Thiamine in both the coccidiosis and the host animal (in our case lambs). Both the lamb and the cocci need thiamine to survive, however the lamb is capable of storing thiamine in its fat tissue and the coccidia is not able to hold long term stores of thiamine, so in the 5days you treat the lamb with Corrid, the lamb uses its thiamine stores, while the coccidia die. With repeated treatments the lambs thiamine stores are depleted and can become deficient.
Sulfonamides such as Sustain work directly to kill the coccidiosis, not by blocking thiamine uptake
|lm1668||Posted 05/02/12 12:15AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|The Corid doesn't stop production of thiamin (vitamin b1) in the rumen or block the lambs ability to utilize it. It merely mimics thiamine and then when the coccidia ingest it they experience thiamin deficiency and starve from malnutrition. Once the lamb has coccidiosis and its symptoms, it has an unhealthy rumen which may not produce enough vitamin b to keep the lamb healthy. Administering vitamin b at that time is recommended. |
|KassiesMom||Posted 05/02/12 12:42AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Ask A&M why they think it is potentially dangerous and recommend against it.|
|KassiesMom||Posted 05/02/12 12:45AM Changed 05/02/12 02:35AM|
|When Corid mimics thymine it tricks the hosts body into thinking it has.rhyming, the way I heard it, so the host neither produces more nor uses stores of rhyming because the body has been fooled by this chemical. I am not being a know it all, this is just what I have been told. I find this conversation quite educational.
Perhaps it depends on the manufacturer of the calf bolus. This is the kind I use:
|holliterman36||Posted 05/02/12 01:01AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|DING DING DING - Round three is up. Judges have reached a split decision that will take us into a Final round, each contestant will get one final post and the judges will make a decision on the Champion.
|EmsoffLambs||Posted 05/02/12 01:13AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I've used Corid to treat, not prevent, at the labelled dosage.
Three years ago, I had a bad coccidiosis break. Lambs, ewes, everybody. Corid cleared it up. Last year I used Deccox mixed in the ewes' salt prior to lambing and for a couple months after. We had an extremely wet winter yet had no coccidiosis. It was great. It was much drier this winter so I didn't use the Deccox. Mistake. A bunch of lambs got it and Corid in the water finally got it under control.
I wasn't sure about the safety for the guard dogs, so I made sure they couldn't get to it.
|KassiesMom||Posted 05/02/12 01:38AM Changed 05/02/12 01:42AM|
|Lol.......I am far from an expert......I am just saying what I was told about Corid. The way it was explained made sense and the source reliable so that is what I follow. As far as the calf bolis goes, there is no sheep dosage on the bottle, so I actually recommend calling a vet prior to usage because it is different than cattle and off label usage requires vet approval. I will say the bolis is not designed to fix the problem over night, but rather by administering a steady dose of sulfa medication over a 3 day period if I remember right. Often times I have not seen a noticeable difference till day 3, but have noticed the issue resolves rather quickly after that. On day 3 I give a healthy dose of b complex and a dose of thymine. I repeat the b complex for a week and the thymine for 3 days. I also give a double dose of probios during this period. Overkill.....maybe.....but is sure seems to get them back on track and eating like a champ quick. And there is a strong possibility my cocci down here is different than other places, so what works for me probably won't work for others somewhere else. I seriously enjoy other thoughts and theories on subjects like this because it is how we learn and become better. I don't care if you have raised lambs 2 days or 40 years, everyone can learn something new everyday if they open their minds.|
|TXsheepRaiser||Posted 05/02/12 01:41AM Changed 05/02/12 09:16AM|
|Right Josh? Someone has to have the last word on this site lmao|
|Kyhampbreeder||Posted 05/02/12 04:42AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I agree it's an interesting discussion. A few things everyone can take away from this topic : seldom are treatments effective in all flocks and all enviroments. The longer you have a flock of sheep the more resistence to medications you'll have. [ expect we'll see a decrease in effectiveness in deccox at some point] Treatments that are effective for a show lamb string may or may not work in a farm flock where the sheep are onsite 12 months a year.
A few personal observations : I noted a decrease in effectiveness of Corid in flocks I worked with long before Pipevet discontinued recommending it's use. At this time Marquis remains very effective . Sulfadimethox [ Albon /Sustain] is still a "good" treatment.
The variation of reliable sources of good information is remarkable. Example : a good vet with sheep experience tells clients vitamin E given orally will kill sheep. Another : an AG teacher recommends injectable wormers be given IM in the rear leg muscle of lambs. Really interesting to me to hear the amount of strange/inaccurate/dangerous advice passed on by people I'd expect to know better.
|thelambsweat||Posted 05/02/12 06:11AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Has anyone tryed giving predef or dex along with any of the above treatments? Under the direction of your vet. Our vet has us giving the sustain bolus and predef. Normally single dose is all it takes. Has cut our recovery time down to about a day.|
|lm1668||Posted 05/02/12 08:08AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|My information is just based on vet recommendation, Corid website, talking with other breeders, too many hours searching others experiences on the web and most importantly personal experience. I try not to stand behind things that I have only heard about. If studies of Corid usage prove harm to the host animal than I have not seen them or experienced them. Corid claims to have tested giving higher than labeled dosages and longer than labeled length of dosing with no sign of toxicity. Giving extra vitamin b is a good practice after any effective treatment. I have known many who claim ineffectiveness, the problem with discounting Corid's effectiveness, based on those claims, is what KY's post touches on. It's hard to compare when there are so many variables, like exposure, type of sheep, location and mainly method of administration. No need to re state the good results we've had with the use of Corid. Good to know others are experiencing the same good results, Also glad that others have found different ways of controlling coccidiosis too.
Speaking of last words, Tyler could you cool it with that acronym as yours? Don't want my kids to start swearing.
|SnarkyArkie||Posted 05/02/12 08:27AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|If your kid starts swearing because of an acronym, thats a parenting problem, not a posting problem.|
|lm1668||Posted 05/02/12 08:44AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I disagree. The world can be very influential. God's a pretty good parent and we all seem to go astray. |
|KassiesMom||Posted 05/02/12 08:45AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Marquis sounds like a good treatment. The only question I have is about withdrawal....... what is the withdrawal? Everything I have ever been told or saw indicates it is not for use in animal intended for food. Now, I am sure Corid works and have never claimed it doesn't. What I meant is you must be careful and know how to use it because improper usage can be dangerous. I stick to the big blue pills because they work and it is easy to get the dosage right. I meant no disrespect, but the information I was given is more reliable than he said she said rumor stuff. I woul rather see an inexperienced person safe than sorry.|
|SnarkyArkie||Posted 05/02/12 09:01AM Changed 05/02/12 09:06AM|
|Kyhampbreeder||Posted 05/02/12 09:50AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Guessing only NIV in the Myers house? Couldn't keep a KJV around. |
|SnarkyArkie||Posted 05/02/12 09:51AM Changed 05/02/12 09:52AM|
The search feature on this site works wonders. Search Marquis in the search box and you will see many reliable sources that swear by it. Read all the threads on it. We(ARlambs and I) have had a terrible breakout with coccidiosis, that story is told in one of those posts from the search result. We have treated with the Marquis as a preventitive and haven't had a breakout since.
I make it a point not to give vet/feed advice that I am unsure of and rarely any that I am sure of. A lot of advice is given on this site under the pretense of "I heard" as if it releases them from some sort of personal responsibility if the information is inaccurate. While others are so wrapped up in themselves and how much experience they have that they fail to see that maybe they are wrong.
In the future, you may want to follow the practice used by Ritson Urban on the marquis. He was probably one of the more knowledgable feeders in the business with a pretty good success record. We have had a BAD coccidiosis breakout, we have used the corrid(first year mild success, second year no success) and we have used the Marquis and still use boluses on rare occassion. Those that haven't tried the Marquis shouldn't really speak against it. Even if I had to buy a $200 tube for my 60 lambs, it is WELL worth not having to go through that again.
|woolpuller||Posted 05/02/12 09:53AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I'll slip in here.
I have been using rumensin, which is scripted by my vet at 11ppm for over 30 yrs for coccidia. No problem with it.
This product also has many other benefits.
|bigiron59||Posted 05/02/12 09:54AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Deccox in the ewe feed cleans out the ewes before they hit the lambing barn ,thus helping to prolong the period before lambs are exposed. If the ewes are dropping oocysts in the barn, then lambs pick them up, and in the feed bunk , water ect. If the ewes are clean, the lambs are not exposed to as high on number before they are eating enough creep feed to hold them. Yes 90 grams of bovatec will work in lambs, and a few mills will put that leval in, but most stay wilh 30. I just like my decox, diferrent mode of action, and more effective. I would probably use rumensin off label if I had a bigger problem. Better yet. Of the 3 bovatech is the worst at taking care of coccidia. So we start deccx at least 28 days before fisrt lambs expected and keep ewes on that until weaning.As the lambs eat with the ewes, they get some from ewe feed as well as creep feed , and that helps get the leval high enough in the lambs to get controll of it. A lot of info on this post. Some factual, some not so much.Just because you do not see the obvious sympthoms of cocci does not mean you don't have a problem. It is a normal occurring parasite, and will explode under certain conditions, which stress can trigger.Cleanliness is the best prevention, keeping feed and waters clean. Look at peeps that have problems, they usualy have feeders that lambs can get thier feet into or other managemnet practices that predidpose the lambs to outbreaks. I also think that as we send lamb around the world now, so to speak, we are dragging problems around as well. and most of the sale lambs have been fed so much junk, and so little "sheep feed" that they are loaded before you get them, they are just so fat that it does not affect them. This year was no exception as. most of the early sales were old fat lambs. Our weighin is this saturday. It has been the first satuday in May forever. When my kids were in 4-h , it was rare lamb that weigh in much over 80 lbs and never over 100. Will be bunches in the 90 to 105 this year, and have had familes calling about "problems" in ther purchased lambs. They get these fat monsters home, need to shrink them for weighin, have a bad outbreak of coccidia, and can't get the lambs to eat"lamb feed". It is hard to manage them, and hope lessons are learned. Some counties around us have gone the earlier weighs in and 2 at least have 75 lb upper limit for weigh ins or have rasied the rate of gain requirements to make a purple, to help address OFLS(old fat lamb sydrome)|
|EmsoffLambs||Posted 05/02/12 11:36AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|That's exactly what I've read when I did some research after my one bad year, bigiron. That feeding the ewes Deccox for a month or so prior to lambing will clean up the ewes so they aren't releasing ocysts for the lambs to ingest, thereby significantly reducing the lambs' exposure.
One more thing, I've tried the Sustain III boluses and have not found them effective at all here with whatever strain I've got.
I'd say KY is right (imagine that!). Different management systems, different climates, different strains of resistant parasites, all call for different treatment protocols. What works for one might not work for another. There will certainly be different pros and cons for each. I use Corrid because it works for MY sheep right now. I have not had problems with polio, but knowing that it can be a risk, I do watch my lambs closely for signs.
|Kyhampbreeder||Posted 05/02/12 12:57PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
| Simple case of "blind hog syndrome" |
|EmsoffLambs||Posted 05/02/12 01:32PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Never heard that term. What does that mean?|
|kciD||Posted 05/02/12 01:34PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Does LMAO have a meaning to someone who knows not what it stands for- unless told by another outside soure- of which they already knew about before reading it on mylamb.org?
You can only protect your kids so long- they'll not be babies forever. Eventually they'll do what they want anyways.
I had a buddy in high school that was not allowed to hang around with me and another- as his preacher parents thought we were of a negitive influence on him with our girls, swearing, and other things we did. Ended up, both my buddy and I went to college- got good jobs- married, settled down- still no kids... Now the preacher's kid who couldn't hang around with us, knocked up a sophmore girl while a senior in high school- didn't go to college, works full time in a factory and is a weekend fighter for MMA.
Just think if they would have let that kid hang around with us?
|KassiesMom||Posted 05/02/12 01:57PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|So what is Marquis withdrawal time?|
|lm1668||Posted 05/02/12 02:13PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Colossians 3:8 NKJ (my translation of choice). Kcid,the problem with your story is it doesn't tell the ending. Which is what it's all about. Success and failure in life doesn't equate to salvation. Wouldn't want to talk about the things I did in the past but thank the Lord, I am forgiven. It's not about sheltering anyone from the world, it's about being a light in it. I still make as many mistakes as anyone that's why Paul says we have to die to ourselves daily. Sorry if my not wanting to see cussing or abbreviations of, on this site, offended anyone.|
|ohiogirl12||Posted 05/02/12 09:27PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Thanks so much for all the advice and info. everyone has given. Do you guys suggest holding off on the grain during the whole treatment period?|
|lm1668||Posted 05/02/12 09:53PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Not at all. I usually grab ours to drench them while they're at the feed bunk eating grain. Bigiron, I will look into deccox in the ewes feed. Sounds like a good addition. |
|EmsoffLambs||Posted 05/02/12 09:59PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|sheep1||Posted 05/03/12 09:43AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|WOW. When did this post take off like this. I should have given a better, extended answer than just saying Try Corid. My apologies. I know M ttArquis is popular, but for the average person, a 600-700 dollar tube is too expensive and a lot of vets won`t break the tube down. If you have one that will, that`s great. We treated a lamb last week with Marquis, didn`t touchthe coccidosis it had. Finally went back to Primor and it worked. Corid is more preventative and yes can be dangerous by causing Thiamine deficiency. Corid can work on some strains as I`ve cleared up two already with it this year, but some it won`t touch, as the one I had to try Marquis(didn`t work) and finally Primor.|
|woolpuller||Posted 05/03/12 11:09AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Wow, 600-700 dollar a tube. I do rumensin at pennies a tonne and receive three tonne of pellets with it in it.|
|ksjoat||Posted 05/03/12 11:24AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Marquis is usually sold in tubes of 4 for 800 and up. I can't believe that someone is charging 600-700 for a tube. That is ridiculous. |
|ARlambs||Posted 05/03/12 11:27AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
On the Marquis, I belive you are quoting the price on a case, which is 4 tubes, our vet sells individual tube for $200, but uses marquis to treat coccidia in dog breeder operations, like sheep, dosage is much smaller, so he sells it by the cc. Our vet reccommeds 0.1cc/10# body wt as a single dose preeventitive, or repeated for 3days in a row for treatment. I was just trying to share some infomation, not saying everyone must use it.
|DownWithHair||Posted 05/03/12 11:13PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I work part time with a vet...and is the marquis you are referring to the same marquis used to treat horses with EPM...drug name ponazuril or something close? It's an anti protozoal.
Your prices sound about right if you are talking about this drug. I had a pony with EPM and that was a big cha-ching even at cost without a markup. I remember this being a paste though...how are you getting it syringe measurable?
I have some sort of scours that we think is coccidiosis that hits only a couple each year and I give SMZ 960 mg tabs (antibiotic for intestinal stuff) at 1 per 50# once every couple days until they clear up-only did a 2nd treatment once but I think it had to do with the fact I waited so long to give first dose. This is feasible for me with only a few lambs, but obviously a pain for the # of lambs most of you are dealing with.
|ARlambs||Posted 05/04/12 05:17AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Yea, the horse med|
|mikey75||Posted 05/04/12 05:26AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Marquis is $137......|
|CoonHunter||Posted 05/04/12 07:08AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|well what do we need to use on sheep if they come down with Coccidiosis?
kinda confused but heck im always confused.
have we decided a champion yet?
|mikey75||Posted 05/04/12 08:21AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Marquis if available|
|TXsheepRaiser||Posted 05/04/12 01:11PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Easy now Beau i dont want to be accused of being a bad influence lol|
|DownWithHair||Posted 05/04/12 02:27PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Wow, can't believe you are getting it that cheap! It was $730 the case 5 years ago when we bought it at my boss's cost.|
|mikey75||Posted 05/04/12 02:33PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I was shocked this year also. |
|sheep1||Posted 05/04/12 03:17PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Yes, I meant by the case. Some vets won`t order it unless you speak for more than one as it has been outrageous in the past. I does work good on some cases. One we had this year it wouldn`t touch. Went old school with corid and it stopped him. Too many strains getting resistance to too many medications. |
|ohiogirl12||Posted 05/05/12 12:19AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|My question now is how do I know if the coccidiosis is gone. Lambs stools are clearing up and their starting to look better condition wise. For a couple days they looked pretty sunken it. Will I need to take a new stool to get tested or not? Thanks for all the info. |
|Kyhampbreeder||Posted 05/05/12 07:59AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Ideally a sample should be checked . If symptoms are gone I'd just assume the treatment was effective.
A good microscope is a nice tool for feeders and breeders to own. Kind of fun actually to run your own fecal tests.
|lm1668||Posted 05/05/12 09:38AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|If lambs are under 3 mos. old then I would keep my eye out for re infestation. If doing Corid, you can retreat in 2-3 weeks (I would recommend it regardless) , just remember the B complex shot.|
|sheep1||Posted 05/06/12 12:26AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Have your vet microscope a sample and maybe if he/she is nice, they`ll show you how to look at your own sample and all you do is buy a microscope from some cheap science place and test yourself for samples. Works for me.|
|lm1668||Posted 05/10/12 08:15AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Had an interesting talk with vet yesterday. Have any of you using Marquis been told a slaughter withdraw time frame for sheep?|
|KassiesMom||Posted 05/10/12 08:55AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I have been wondering that.......what is the withdrawal time?|
|GarrettsMom2||Posted 05/10/12 09:17AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|We used Marquis when the southdown had coccidia, worked really well, but would have to ask vet again what the withdrawal time is...we used in July and our show wasn't until January.|
|Jaclyn||Posted 05/10/12 10:10AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Extra-label Drug Use in Veterinary Medicine
by Gillian Comyn, D.V.M., M.P.H., D.A.C.V.P.M.
FDA Veterinarian Newsletter March/April 2003 Volume XVIII, No 2
Since 1994, when Congress passed the Animal Medicinal Drug Use Clarification Act of 1994 (AMDUCA), veterinarians in the U.S. have enjoyed legitimate extra-label use (ELU) privileges. Veterinarians can safeguard ELU privileges by following AMDUCA, and by educating clients (particularly food animal producers) on AMDUCA and prudent drug use principles. This article outlines key points of AMDUCA in plain language.
Animal Medicinal Drug Use Clarification Act
Extra-label drug use (ELU) refers to the use of an approved drug in a manner that is not in accordance with the approved label directions. ELU of new animal drugs was considered illegal and permitted only as a matter of enforcement discretion until the passing of AMDUCA. AMDUCA amended the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (the Act), legalizing extra-label drug use by and under the order of a licensed veterinarian within the context of a valid veterinarian-client-patient relationship, and became effective in 1996 when implementing regulations (21 CFR Part 530) were published.
AMDUCA allows veterinarians to prescribe extra-label uses of certain approved animal drugs and approved human drugs for animals under specified conditions.
The key components and conditions of AMDUCA1 are as follows:
Veterinarian-Client-Patient Relationship (VCPR)
General Conditions for Extra-Label Use Under AMDUCA
Conditions for Extra-Label Use in Food Animals
Compounding Under AMDUCA
Prohibitions Under AMDUCA
Veterinarian-Client-Patient Relationship (VCPR)
The regulation defines a valid veterinarian-client-patient relationship as one in which:
A veterinarian has assumed the responsibility for making medical judgments regarding the health of (an) animal(s) and the need for medical treatment, and the client (the owner of the animal or animals or other caretaker) has agreed to follow the instructions of the veterinarian;
There is sufficient knowledge of the animal(s) by the veterinarian to initiate at least a general or preliminary diagnosis of the medical condition of the animal(s); and
The practicing veterinarian is readily available for follow-up in case of adverse reactions or failure of the regimen of therapy. Such a relationship can exist only when the veterinarian has recently seen and is personally acquainted with the keeping and care of the animal(s) by virtue of examination of the animal(s), and/or by medically appropriate and timely visits to the premises where the animal(s) are kept.
General Conditions for Extra-Label Drug Use Under AMDUCA
There is no animal drug approved for the intended use;
Or, there is an animal drug approved for the intended use, but the approved drug is not in the required dosage form or concentration;
Or, the approved drug has been found to be clinically ineffective when used as labeled;
Or, if the intended use is in a non-food animal, an approved human drug can be used even if an approved animal drug is available.
In food animals, use of approved human drugs is not permitted if (an) approved animal drug(s) can be used.
RECORDKEEPING: The veterinarian must maintain records with animal identification (in food animal practices, on a group, herd, flock, or per-client basis). The records have to include: established name of the drug and its active ingredient, or if formulated from more than one ingredient, established name of each ingredient; condition treated; species of the treated animal(s); dosage administered; treatment duration; number of animals treated; and withdrawal, withholding, or discard time(s), for meat, milk, eggs, or any food from the animals treated. The veterinarian must keep these records for 2 years or as required by Federal or State law, whichever is greater. The records must be available at any reasonable times to FDA designated personnel, for copying and verifying.
LABELING: The label on a drug dispensed for ELU, whether by a veterinarian or dispensed by a pharmacist on the order of a veterinarian, must have the following information: name and address of the prescribing veterinarian (and the pharmacy if dispensed this way). Also, the labeling must have on it the following:
animal identification (individual for companion animals, or group or pen if food animal),
indication (what condition is the drug being used to treat),
number of animals treated (in the case of food animals),
dosage, route, and duration of treatment,
withdrawal intervals, and,
any cautionary statements (for example: not for use in horses intended for food).
AMDUCA does not allow extra-label drug use in animal feeds.
AMDUCA does not permit veterinarians, or pharmacists, to compound unapproved finished new animal drug products from bulk drugs
Conditions for Extra-Label Use in Food Animals
Before prescribing or dispensing an approved new animal or human drug for an extra-label use in food animals, the veterinarian must:
make a careful diagnosis and evaluation of the conditions for which the drug is to be used;
provide an estimated, scientifically-based, withdrawal interval for the milk, meat, eggs, or other edible products from the treated animal (this information may be obtained by the veterinarian in context of a VCPR from among other sources, scientific literature, academia, or the Food Animal Residue Avoidance Databank (FARAD)2 ;
make sure that the identity of the treated animal or animals is maintained;
take measures to assure that assigned timeframes for withdrawal are met and no illegal drug residues occur in any food-producing animal subjected to extra-label treatment.
When considering extra-label use of an approved human drug in food animals:
the veterinarian must have medical rationale for the use;
the veterinarian may not use an approved human drug if an animal drug approved for use in food-producing animals can be used instead for the particular ELU; and
if scientific information on the human food safety aspect of the use of the drug in food-producing animals is not available, the veterinarian must take appropriate measures to assure that the animal and its food products will not enter the human food supply.
Compounding Under AMDUCA
FDA defines compounding as the manipulation of drugs to obtain products that differ from the starting materials in an approved dosage form drug. Under AMDUCA, compounding is considered to be extra-label drug use, and must be done from approved finished dosage form human or animal drugs only. Like any extra-label use, compounded drugs should not be used if an approved drug can be used at its approved dose and dosage form. AMDUCA does not permit veterinarians, or pharmacists, to compound unapproved finished new animal drug products from bulk drugs. Unless conditions set forth in 21 CFR 530.13(b) are met, the compounding of a new animal drug from an approved human or animal drug results in an adulterated new animal drug.
Conditions for Compounding
all relevant portions of the regulation have been complied with;
there is no approved new animal or approved new human drug that when used as labeled or in the available dosage form and concentration, will properly treat the condition diagnosed. Compounding from a human drug for use in food-producing animals will not be permitted if an approved animal drug can be used for the compounding;
the compounding is performed by a licensed pharmacist upon the order of a veterinarian or by a veterinarian within the scope of their professional practice;
adequate procedures and processes are followed that ensure the safety and effectiveness of the compounded product;
the scale of the compounding operation is commensurate with the established need for compounded products (e.g., similar to that of comparable practices); and
all relevant State laws relating to the compounding of drugs for use in animals are followed.
Prohibited Drug Uses Under AMDUCA
As described above, AMDUCA allows FDA to place limits on certain extra-label drug uses in animals. These limits include prohibitions of certain extra-label uses. Though The Act provides a stepwise procedure leading to a prohibition, the Agency does not have to take all the steps before prohibiting an extra label use if it finds that the extra-label drug use “presents a risk”.
When assessing the risk from an extra-label drug use, the Agency may inspect a veterinarian’s records. The purpose of the inspection is to document the extent and nature of the extra-label use, not for enforcement reasons. The Agency provides informal public notice when it makes such a finding. If the Agency finds that an extra-label drug use presents a risk, or a required analytical method has not been developed, the Agency may prohibit the use. Any new prohibition ordered by the Agency will be published in the Federal Register, with a ninety-day delayed effective date and a sixty-day comment period. The order will be effective in ninety days, unless it is revoked or modified, or the comment period is extended. When a prohibition or any other important regulatory change is codified, the notice is posted immediately on the CVM web site and disseminated through printed media (FDA Veterinarian, veterinary and trade journals and other sources).
The Current List of Drugs Prohibited From Extra-Label Use (As listed in 21 CFR 530.41)
These drugs (both animal and human), families of drugs, and substances are currently prohibited for extra-label uses in all food-producing animals, (including horses intended for human food):
Ipronidazole and other nitroimidazoles
Furazolidone, Nitrofurazone, other nitrofurans
Sulfonamide drugs in lactating dairy cattle (except approved use of sulfadimethoxine, sulfabromomethazine, and sulfaethoxypyridazine)
(Editor’s note: This list is complete as of press date, see related article FDA Order Prohibits Extra-Label Use of Phenylbutazone on page 4.)
AMDUCA legalized extra-label use of approved animal and human drugs in animals when that use is under the supervision of a veterinarian and in accordance with FDA regulations. AMDUCA provided veterinarians with privileges comparable to those generally enjoyed by physicians. Veterinarians can protect these privileges by complying with AMDUCA, and understanding the permitted and prohibited extra-label drugs and uses (including compounding).
For more information on AMDUCA, other regulations and policies, and to request hard copies, please visit the CVM Home Page, and look under Quick Index. Notices of proposed rulemaking and final rules, such as additions to prohibited drug list, are announced by Federal Register notices and posted on the CVM Home Page and the FDA Dockets Advanced Publication Display website.
Dr. Comyn is a Consumer Safety Officer in CVM’s Division of Compliance.
Title 21-Food and Drugs [Cite: 21CFR530]
Food Animal Residue Avoidance Databank (FARAD)
|SnarkyArkie||Posted 05/10/12 10:10AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|We haven't. What is it?|
|SnarkyArkie||Posted 05/10/12 10:26AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I would be more concerned with what is hitting the buyers trailer at NAILE, state fairs and other big shows before I worried about a 1/2cc of marquis given at weaning and brought to slaughter 8-10 months and 100-140 pounds later.|
|Sheepherder007||Posted 05/10/12 12:07PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Been a long time since I heard any truer or more fitting statement that that Snarky|
|SnarkyArkie||Posted 05/10/12 12:15PM Changed 05/10/12 12:26PM|
|I called BayerDVM(maker of Marquis) and asked and they are aware of off label use but unaware of withdrawl times in lamb because there has never been a study. I then asked what would happen if I mistakenly ingested "a half cc or so" while treating a horse and I was told likely nothing. So if a vet has a withdrawl time, I would be curious where he got the information|
|KassiesMom||Posted 05/10/12 01:20PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|OK, so all of this has sparked curiosity...... made me look up .. toltrazuril sulphone, which is Marquis.......the data I could find was a bit confusing and vague. The best I could gather is it is believed this drug may take several months to years to withdraw and that there is a great concern that other food products could become contaminated from run off from excrement from animals treated with this drug. I also seen a few things that said the FDA uses this drug residue as a marker to condone a food source as contaminated. I hope what I gathered is wrong.....as I said information is vague. |
|MossCreek1||Posted 05/10/12 01:32PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I would call USDA and ask them about Marquis before using it. Not the vet, not he drug manufacture but USDA. |
|SmithLivestockTX||Posted 05/10/12 02:01PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Mc what about the FDA|
|DonD1||Posted 05/10/12 02:31PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I like the idea of a one time treatment but I'm not seeing that it works;
If you consider a few data points, taking from Jaclyn's post
"When considering extra-label use of an approved human drug in food animals: the veterinarian must have medical rationale for the use; "
translate this to - convenience is not a medical rationale
reading further on Jaclyn's post
"if scientific information on the human food safety aspect of the use of the drug in food-producing animals is not available, the veterinarian must take appropriate measures to assure that the animal and its food products will not enter the human food supply."
Now couple this with the Marquis label which says, "This product is not for use in animals intended for food."
How is your vet (or you) going to prove that this drug will not enter the human food supply? Use of this drug would IMO put any lamb so treated at risk for failing the drug test. It's not a performance enhancing drug, so I don't know if the big shows are testing for it. However, from my perspective asking my vet to prescribe this would put at risk my current good relationship with my vet where they normally prescribe extra-label drugs I want if I asked for a drug that specifically says don't give to animals intended for food.
|SnarkyArkie||Posted 05/10/12 03:35PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Don, when I spoke with the BayerDVM rep they told me they simply just haven't tested for meat consumption. He said they were well aware that it has become a drug of choice for many off label uses from dogs, cats, rabbits, lizards, chickens and meat producing livestock. He also said some studies are ongoing that could make this product become more widely used in veterinary care in the very near future.
Now, I only called them because I just wanted to know since I was eating our wethers and sometimes letting them go on trucks at Louisville. Bigiron knows more about clinical studies than anyone I know so he might have to weigh in on the subject. I would "assume" that if there was a definitive defect linked to ponazuril, it would be plastered all over the internet but I can't find a thing from a reputable source to the positive or the negative which says to me it just hasn't been tested in meat. I would also "assume" as popular as Marquis is in the horse community that even though it was "not for animals intended for food", some to many of those treated horses ended up at slaughter for human consumption.
|bigbonesnshag||Posted 05/10/12 05:04PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
| after 89 comments i`m gonna wad into the pool.first there are several strands of coccidiosis.what i have had sulmete and corrid have not worked on but sustain 3 and marquis does.i prefer marquis over sustain because i hate crushing up pills.most cases of coccidiosis occur before 3 monthes and most of us are talking about treating show lambs that don`t get eaten till after they are a year old.
as far as corrid being dangerous i don`t know but pipestone advised me that prolonged use of sulmete was bad on liver or kidney`s i can`t remember.i use a medicated feed starting in the last trimester that contains deccox and have very little problems.
more food for thought,how do we know it was coccidiosis?show lambs are fed a rich feed that tears up thier belly.they eat good this week,pull off feed and scour next week and then you spent 2 weeks building them back up to eating good just to do it again.often times this is confused with coccidiosis.goes back to a old post keith odom had about on how your poop should look.some people will look at fat or protein and never figure in some fiber.i try to keep my poop just at the grenade consistancy and add a touch of bicarb to keep thier guts cooled down.
|bigiron59||Posted 05/10/12 08:15PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Infection with Eimeria is one of the most economically important diseases of sheep. Historically, some Eimeria spp were thought to be infectious and transmissible between sheep and goats, but the parasites are now considered host-specific. The names of some species of goat coccidia are still erroneously applied to species of similar appearance found in sheep. E ahsata and E ovinoidalis (ninakohlyakimovae) are pathogens of lambs, usually 1-6 mo old; E ovina appears to be somewhat less pathogenic. Older sheep serve as sources of infection for the young. All other Eimeria of sheep are essentially nonpathogenic, even when large numbers of oocysts are present in feces. Signs include diarrhea (sometimes containing blood or mucus), dehydration, fever, inappetence, weight loss, anemia, wool breaking, and death. The ileum, cecum, and upper colon are usually most affected and may be thickened, edematous, and inflamed; sometimes, there is mucosal hemorrhage. Thick, white, opaque patches containing large numbers of E ovina oocysts may develop in the small intestine. Because oocysts are prevalent in feces of sheep of all ages, coccidiosis cannot be diagnosed based solely on finding oocysts. Peak oocyst counts of >100,000/g of feces have been reported in 8- to 12-wk-old lambs that appeared healthy. However, diarrhea with oocyst counts of a pathogenic species of >20,000/g is characteristic of coccidiosis in sheep. Immune complex glomerulonephritis has also been attributed to coccidiosis. Fly strike and secondary bacterial enteric infections may accompany coccidiosis.
Lambs 1-6 mo old in lambing pens, intensive grazing areas, and feedlots are at greatest risk as a result of shipping, ration change, crowding stress, severe weather, and contamination of the environment with oocysts from ewes or other lambs. Because occurrence of coccidiosis under these management systems often becomes so predictable, coccidiostats should be administered prophylactically for 28 consecutive days beginning a few days after lambs are introduced into the environment. A concentrated ration containing monensin at 15 g/tonne can be fed to ewes from 4 wk before lambing until weaning, and to lambs from 4-20 wk of age. The toxic level of monensin for lambs is 4 mg/kg. Lasalocid (15-70 mg/head/day, depending on body wt) may be effective. A combination of monensin and lasalocid at 22 and 100 mg/kg of diet, respectively, is an effective prophylactic against naturally occurring coccidiosis in early weaned lambs under feedlot conditions. Treatment of affected sheep once coccidiosis has been diagnosed is not effective, but severity can be reduced if treatment is begun early. A single treatment of toltrazuril (20 mg/kg) can significantly reduce the oocyst output in naturally infected lambs for ~3 wk after administration. Sulfaquinoxaline in drinking water at 0.015% concentration for 3-5 days may be used for treatment of affected lambs. In groups of lambs at pasture, the frequent rotation of pastures for parasite control will also help control coccidial infection. However, when lambs are exposed to infection early in life as a result of infection from the ewe and a contaminated lambing ground, a solid immunity usually develops and only when the stocking density is extremely high will a problem develop.
Directly from the Merck manual. Cocci is species specif. Goast and cows do not get of spread sheep codia and vice versa. Thier are 2 or 3 type that affect each species. Some are becoming resistnt to treatment. The probelm with marquie is it is not aporved, for food producing animals, That being said it would have no safe residue leavl, so coul be grounds for prosecution if FDA so desired. Since no work has been done, there is now way of knowing what the half life is, and that is what determines withholding time. Even though sheep have been designated "minor species" which was suppoded to make it easier to approve new meds for use. It has not worked out that way, and becuase of the prohibitive cost to get new products to market( can be in excess of 50 to 100 billion. I have worked on projects that made it though the 40 chimp challedge. That is just the beginning and my company had over 50 million invested to that point. If you fail that part, which we passed in flying coloers, You have to start over from ground zero) to bring an new drung to market. The whole sheep population is US is not woth that, so no one will undertake this work.any time you use drug extra label, the normal withholding is increased on averge 10 fold. So I would still be hard pressed to use marquies. I know it works, but so do many other things. I would agree with BIGBOne, that many peple think they have cocci, and do not. Severe cocci will do permanent , ireparable damage, to the intestinal tract, which will lead to scouring and poor perfomance. Agin, feed with dec cox is far beeter than bovatech, and prevention is better than tretament. It starts with the breeder. You guys want to continue to buy lambs that have been fed more junk thanfeed, and then haul them all over the country, feed them 6 kinda of feed in 3 weeks, and hope for the best. Good luck.
|woolpuller||Posted 05/11/12 09:49AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
I am curious for what company you work for?
If desire you can email me direct.
In the Message box you can use special indicators for formatting, if you wish. Here is how to <em>emphasize</em> your text. Or, you can <u>underline</u> areas of your messages. Or, use <b>bold</b> to really make a point.