| || Member || Message |
|golden1||Posted 07/14/12 07:51PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I appreciate a judge who can tell the difference in a lamb that has been "tampered" with by feel/appearance. If you happened to be one that can't then possibly you need to re-evaluate your ability to judge!|
|OG||Posted 07/14/12 09:10PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|golden1..would you carefully go over the steps and procedure that a judge should follow to determine if a lamb has been tampered with...since I judge a few shows I sure would hate to use a lamb that has been tampered with...tell me what I should be on the look-out for and tell me how to determine if it's natural or fake...OG|
|lovesheep||Posted 07/14/12 09:45PM Changed 07/14/12 09:47PM|
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/15/12 12:45AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I don't know about that, but I saw quite possibly the worst Lamb judge I have ever seen. This is not a dig. She did great judging pigs. Her pig buckle told She was a pig judge, but lambs....... I saw far too many exelent prospects out there get buried. All were placed in order from lightest and youngest to biggest and oldest. What a night.|
|kevnae||Posted 07/15/12 01:34AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Is it the Caldwell show that is being referred to? Anyone know who won that show?|
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/15/12 02:04AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Not the Caldwell show.|
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/15/12 02:04AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Not the Caldwell show.|
|mdculp||Posted 07/15/12 09:04AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I agree with OG our job is to place the lambs presented not sort them for being tampered or not. The show committee should have that done before I walk into ring.|
|mdculp||Posted 07/15/12 09:07AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|If you don't want lamb to be evaluated don't let him in ring. What if I say a lamb is tampered with and I am wrong. I have embarrassed everyone. |
|DonD1||Posted 07/15/12 09:35AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I'm sort of you Mick up to a theoratical point. If lamb had an clear case of being tampered with that the judge noticed I'd expect the judge to disqualify the lamb. However, back to Gail's point, exactly what would that evidence be?
We've all heard people by the side of the ring that "know" something. There's no control over what is said there and if Golden1 really is a novice I can easily imagine several people making comments like "anyone can tell that lambs been altered". In that case I can see a newcomer thinking "why doesn't that judge to a better job". But there is a huge difference between suspicious and proven with a live animal without blood tests. I don't recall any show that has some sort of sifting for altered lambs in advance of the show and if it was so easy to tell for sure that's when it would be done.
|PeteM||Posted 07/15/12 09:49AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|And sometimes we get barn blind and think we have the best sheep ever and if it is beaten then the lamb that beats it can only be juiced. Hear it all of the time.|
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/15/12 11:19AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|We won that show yesterday. What makes me mad is the kids I saw with nice prospects that were right on track for their age, weight and show date get told some bad advice in the ring and then buried in class. Nothing worse in my mind than someone who says they can do something and can't. People look to judges for good advice and a good evaluation of their project. When a judge doesn't have a clue, doesn't handle the sheep proper, doesn't trawl sheep terms on the Mike, refers to sheep as smooth to look at......my daughter's Lamb won because it was overpowering to look at. Anyways, horrible advice and horrible evaluations can and does lead novice families to mess up a perfectly good prospect.|
|Sheepherder007||Posted 07/15/12 11:29AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|It is not an easy thing to do. When you actually know what is and can be used and how it is applied or given, it becomes easier to tell. However, you cannot always tell.
This is not a job for a judge to have to do. That being said, I feel like it is a judges job to be informed and be aware of that possibility.
Some of us know for sure that it does happen, but it is not as often as a lot of people think.
This is a touchy subject and like Pete says just because you got beat doesn't mean the sheep was needled or fed illegal products.
|OG||Posted 07/15/12 11:35AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Kassie's Mom..What project leaders, whether they represent 4-H,FFA, The Grange, Independent(home school) club members should tell these entrants and their parents/guardians, etc. prior to entering any show at any level is their individual placing will be determined by a judges personal opinion...doesn't mean their animal is the best, middle of the road, or worst in class, regardless of how it places, but, was placed by a judges personal preference. Judging of live animals of any species is not an exact science...just an opinion...judging carcass competition is an exact science with a strict set of guidelines to follow...OG|
|HansenLivestock||Posted 07/15/12 11:46AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|KevNae, Bearkat and his family won that show. He had grand in Ring A and Grand and Reserve in Ring B. Awful proud of the hard work and dedication his family has put into this. Glad I could share in the excitement with them!
A picture of the lamb can be seen below. (It is public so anyone should be able to view it.)
|OG||Posted 07/15/12 12:00PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Rex..Amen to what you just wrote. For those of us such as you and I who have been around this show game for a long time, and that's what it is...a game, much like the athletic events that a lot of young people participate in, we could name individuals that are very proficient at using the "tricks of the trade" to enhance an animals apperance, however, to name names would serve no useful purpose and perhaps be even libelous. However, there is one particular show where a very loveable judge did make a comment concerning what he suspected in lining up the Fine Wool Cross Champions Drive at Houston many years ago...the judge, who is/was one of my favorite judges of all times, Bennie Doane, was not only a capable judge but Bennie told it how he thought it was on the mic...as Bennie had completed judging the final drive to determine the breed champion and reserve he would stand behind each class champion as he was evaluating each lamb giving his reasons for placing that lamb, he came to a lamb that sure looked the part of a class champion, however, before discussing the lamb, Bennie started his reasons by saying, " I just now noticed somethign about this lamb that I did not notice when placing the class he came out of, but, standing directly behind this lamb, and, I'm not making any accusations one way or the other, but it sure looks like his right leg is bigger than his left leg." No sooner had the words left Bennie's lips the spectators, especially those in the know, let out one of the loudest laughs I have ever witnessed at a lamb show..The reason for the loud laugh..those in attendance "in the know" knew the exhibitor,his family, and their "jock" were famous for their suspected illegal practices. What made it so humorous was they had just been called out by the famous Bennie Doane...OG|
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/15/12 12:54PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|OG........ I usually don't let stuff like that bother me. However, this took the cake. Teaching people who to and who not to listen to is tough. People pretending to be a judge and are blatantly lost make all judges look bad. Do I expect all Lamb judges to be experts in sheep at small shows.....no.......I do expect them to at least have general knowledge of how to judge a Lamb. And if they don't know what they are doing, I expect them to at least have the respect not to tell kids how to correct their lambs.......especially when they have good lambs. I mean, if they have to say something tell them the Lamb needsmore time on feed. I saw some people that came from 3 hours away bring an awesome down and an excellent black face only to hit the very bottom of class because they were the lightest and most youthful looking lambs out there. They received horrible advice on how to fix their lambs. Luckily, I talked to them and got them to pay no attention to those comments. But this was a true prospect show that several kids brought their projects to for practice and guidance. I felt bad for them.|
|texasgurl||Posted 07/15/12 02:39PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|OG!! That was MY lambs my blackface and my down everyone was talking about. We spent the day with people just lined up to look at my down and complimenting it and saying it was going to win and she didn't. But it was awesome to meet so many helpful people and participants there! We literally could not get back to our trailer b/c lines of people were coming up and saying they swore the down should have placed way higher and the blackfaced not to far behind it. We need to work on showmanship though too! I am not giving up! And I will be at aggieland next week to learn more and fight on with my little down and blackface babies!! (: (:|
|texasgurl||Posted 07/15/12 02:44PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|And thank you so much to Kassiesmom for helping us shear and get ready! You are amazing! By the way even the man who was running the show came up and stopped me after it was over and said that the down should have been first place in my class! Its all good it was our first jackpot so we will be back around with more knowledge and fight in us!! Trust me WE WILL|
|OG||Posted 07/15/12 03:04PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|texasgurl..That's the attitude of a winner! You go girl... before reading this I sent you a private email...read it and if you have any questions get in touch with those I recommended previously and a big STAR to Kassiesmom for helping you...That's what experienced people are supposed to do..help those with less experience...OG|
|Sheepherder007||Posted 07/15/12 03:18PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|OG Bennie was one of my favorites. He retired to the "home front" where I was raised at Altus. I showed to him several times myself with a good deal of success and had younger brothers do the same.
You are right- he told it like it was!
|ARlambs||Posted 07/15/12 05:25PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Prospect shows are a funny thing, I think it is really a challenge for judges to veiw lambs as they may appear down the road, rather than how they stand today. In our experience, the way to win classes at a prospect show, is to have the fleshiest lamb, especially in the lighter weight classes, a green lamb no matter how good has a tough road to the top. Back to the fat sells theory, it sells a good number of judges as well as buyers. |
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/15/12 05:53PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|ARI you are right about that theory. We had the biggest and the oldest sheep there and it came out on top. I am no expert, but I was amazed at the quality at that little show. Unfortunately, almost all the quality lambs I saw hit the bottom of the class. I hope the new families that attended that show overlook that judge and keep their heads up. There were some good sheep there.|
|bearkat||Posted 07/15/12 07:51PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|What kind of show was it? A jackpot or progress show? Wouldn't a judge approach them differently?|
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/15/12 08:07PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Unfortunately no often times they don't. |
|CEE||Posted 07/15/12 08:15PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|It was a jackpot lamb and goat show sanctioned by TJLA. We showed 6 lambs there and overall I have no complaints about it. As far as the comments about the judges, I've seen better but I've definitely seen worse! The thing that everyone needs to keep in mind is: its ONE show, ONE persons opinion and the next show you attend the placings will probably be totally different. Don't let one show get you or your kids discouraged!|
|OG||Posted 07/15/12 09:15PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Cindy..The way I approach a show if there are classes for both prospect and market when I'm down to selecting the champions I evaluate the quality of my lighter weight class winners in comparison to the market weight class winners and the animal that I feel is most similar to what I consider the ideal market show lamb is what I select for Grand. It can come out of the Market weights or it can come out of the prospect weights...prospects you are placing on their potential, market weight are placed as market ready. Structural correctness plays an important part in the prospect classes with evidence of muscle...in the market classes, structure, muscle, and finish are all considered...CEE..great advice....OG|
|DonD1||Posted 07/15/12 09:16PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|When we have showed at prospect shows our experience has been right in line ARLambs experience. Have a bloomy, fleshy lamb if your there to place high. I remember a few years ago the judge even said on our lamb, in a month or two that lamb is probably going to win this class but today I'm taking the lamb with more bloom. We sort of scratched our head on that one, but it's the way they are judged.|
|kevnae||Posted 07/16/12 01:03AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I'm confused! Cee, where was the TJLA show you went to? The only one we saw on the Schedule was Burleson Co. area. (I guess Caldwell area)? Any other TJLA lamb shows this weekend?|
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/16/12 07:41AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Cee........ we go to about 20 prospect shows a year and I have yet to see a judge as lost as that one was. It's a shame too because the people there do such a fabulous job with their shows each year. It is not their fault. I just hope nobody else hires her for anything other than pigs.|
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/16/12 07:42AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|And that show was not sanctioned in any way. It was just for the kids to practice and get some tips.|
|coondawg||Posted 07/16/12 08:41AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|kassiesmom, maybe since it was a practice show and maybe it was also to give a young judge some experience judging lambs, says you had one of the oldest and biggest and came out on top. sounds like she found yalls sheep. i dont see the problem. if you win a class or place high why worry about how the rest are placed. you and your family has done what they came to do or is it words have been said to some that were being helped and the judge didnt see it the way the thoughts were told to others.
it was a practice show hmmmm looks like for both showers and judge. so dont bash the judge when yalls opinion dont seem to be the same.
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/16/12 09:02AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Coondawg........ you don't understand the magnitude of the situation. I don't complain about judges. I am used to new and inexperienced judges, I prepare for it and anticipate it. However, when I see one doing stuff damaging to young impressionable people i have a problem with that. Everybody needs a start somewhere, but if you know you don't have a clue about a species don't accept a job judging something you are not qualified for. Our 15 month old showmanship ewe won the show. I brought her there because she is built in a way that would appeal to any pig judge and that is what i expected to be there. Now, it is easy to fake your way through things and make some poor recomendations and such because you don't have to deal with that kid again. It is people like me stuck cleaning that mess up and making new families understand why.|
|TXsheepRaiser||Posted 07/16/12 11:28AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I agree beau |
|CEE||Posted 07/16/12 11:34AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Yes, it was a TJLA Sanctioned show for lambs and goats. That's the only reason we drove 4 1/2 hours to go was because it was a point show. Check the Showbox Magazine or tjlaonline.com if you don't believe me...it's listed as the Burleson County Show in Caldwell, TX. |
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/16/12 11:42AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Different show cee |
|CEE||Posted 07/16/12 11:45AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|KassiesMom, what show are you talking about? Was there another show in the Caldwell area that day?|
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/16/12 11:46AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|OK..........before this......when have I EVER complained about a judge......EVER. We go to a lot of shows every year. Don't you figure something must be up|
|bearkat||Posted 07/16/12 11:54AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|CEE - I don't know which show they are referring too but I know there was another show somewhere in the area Saturday night that was starting around 7pm. |
|SnarkyArkie||Posted 07/16/12 11:54AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Well said Beau.
KM, you took a 15 month old sheep to a prospect show? I just assumed a prospect show was for market prospects and I guess I assumed market age was 9-12 months old. I know Tx uses older sheep for some shows but I didnt think prospect shows were one of them.
|solaura||Posted 07/16/12 12:04PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Non-sanctioned prospect shows are just that. Period... They are good to get a lamb or novice kid in the ring to practice and nothing more. Just good to get those young prospects out and walking around the ring without the extreme competiveness of TJLA sanctioned shows, where you genersally find qualified judges.. Most people would not take anthing but their younger prospects to such event just to get them out. Enough said! |
|coondawg||Posted 07/16/12 12:11PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|if you never complained before then why start now. you said your family did well and some did bad so be it. i do know the magnitude of it all i been in the same situation before when i started, also with my kids and i put the lil mark in my book by that judges name. if we dont do well under them we dont go to that show or we try and take lambs that fit that judge.
also this is called the game of life... it has its ups and downs. kinda like my ole grand pappy use to say if you get bucked off get up dust your self off and get back on. if you dont understand that language it means dont dis-meaner this event for all events. load up next weekend and head out to another show & judge and if the same out come then it is possibly not the judge.
we have set first at one show and last at another sometimes we have won a class in ring A and 6-10 in Ring B just two different judges opinion that day at the same show. oh yeah and the same kids with the same sheep in both rings... oh well i will get off the soap box.
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/16/12 12:19PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Not always Snarky....... she's really nice....why not show her? I needed to start some little ones off in the ring and that was the main point of going. The end of my buyer beware. As I said, I don't complain about judges. I fixed the damage with folks I know or talked to. Did I tell them their project was the best or worst.....no. Did I tell them to ignore what they were told and explain why. I told them to focus on what they seen a select few kids do with their lambs and learn from that. There are no sanctioned Lamb shows in East Texas anymore, so our kids have to go where they can for practice. They local shows are geared toward lambs ready to show now through October this time of year. I kept a hold over for showmanship practice until one of the new lambs gets a little more size to her. The biggest ewe Lamb we have is 50lbs right now. Showmanship ewe is 135 with is a good size to practice with for the kid. Why is that so bad?|
|SnarkyArkie||Posted 07/16/12 12:26PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I am just used to 135 pound sheep being more market weight and anything 50-90 being more "prospect". That's just what we have seen in and around Arkansas, can't say if it was bad or good as I was just trying to understand Tx jackpots. I was hoping to visit a few breeders in Tx next year and thought planning those trips around some open jackpots would give my kids a chance to show in Tx. |
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/16/12 12:30PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Coondawg...... I mean no disrespect honestly I don't. But since when is it alright for a person to continue to go around to different shows and do that organization a diservice? This was horrid to watch. I wish you could have been there you would understand. We as responsible adults should not condone extreme cases such as this. This was more than just inexperienced I promise, but let the next unknowing organization hire her, what do I know.|
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/16/12 12:32PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Look me up in a couple months....I will know where a few are up north....may even hear of some this weekend.|
|holliterman36||Posted 07/16/12 01:20PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|**This post is in regards to the original topic.**
This was obviously a post to get everyone on here fired up on here and apparently it worked. It seems to me it is another sore loser that continues to get beat because they spend more time reading/writing about how great they are rather than spending the time in the barn.
Most shows offer a "protest" and if you really feel you were cheated out of a placing, protesting is a right you have. Do it and if you're wrong you make yourself look like even more of an idiot.
And whether or not a judge made a good or bad call, it is his/her decision and theirs alone. I witnessed something this weekend that I never have and that was exhibitors and their families trying to degrade a judge or his/her opinion in front of the whole crowd. If you don't like the placings you got, wait until the next show. If it was truly the judge then you shouldn't place that way again. However if you continually stick in the bottom of your class you may be over looking something that is a big enough deal multiple judges bury you.
|nancee||Posted 07/16/12 01:22PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I think Kassiesmom opinion on the judge isn't coming from the attitude of I didn't win so i will complain about the judge. Her daughter won grand so there would be no reason for that. It was my daughter's down that the judge gave some info to that was completely incorrect. We couldn't even get back to our trailer after the show b/c so many people were lined up to tell my daughter not to follow her advice. it was crazy! And we were only there for fun and learning we don't care who wins or loses. I have to say though that Kassiesmom doesn't complain just b/c something didn't go her way. She was seriously looking out for beginners getting wrong information and taking it home and possibly messing up their lambs. That is all she is saying here from what I see. And my daughter being a somewhat new shower i would appreciate that someone (well in this case probably 20 people) would warn us before we went home and messed up a pretty darn good down!! This was not the caldwell show by the way. Calm down eveyone. I think your taking her comments in the wrong way. She was up there being very helpful to some great kids with some good lambs and she didn't have to do that when she was also competing. My daughters lambs are the ones everyone at that show was stunned that didn't place higher. But we just went there to learn and have fun and meet some good people which we did and we are thankful to Kassiesmom for showing us the ropes! |
|nancee||Posted 07/16/12 01:36PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|And holliterman I don't know what show the first post was referring to but my kids and the kids around us when they didn't place as high as expected they were all good sports and all were there just having fun. I didn't notice judge bashing. But I can't deny the fact that on the way back to the trailer over 20 different people --breeders, long time show people etc stopped my daughter and told her not to listen to judge's advice. Strongly warned her not to. And there was no bashing just concerned people warning us to stay with our breeder's advice not a judge's advice. We were just having fun and tired and ready to go home no bashing, no bad sportmanship, and we had fun and learned a lot despite the rest of the stuff. Just don't want people to think the kids were bad sports b/c NONE of the kids acted like that or bashed anyone! maybe you talking of a different show That was not my experience.|
|la1lucy||Posted 07/16/12 01:51PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I was at Kountze and I saw that down! She was georgeous~lots of muscle and just very eye catching. Thought she would have placed better myself. Don't think that judge liked downs. But it is all opinions anyway right?|
|la1lucy||Posted 07/16/12 01:56PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Texasgurl your down is beautiful. Keep up the good work! Hope to see you at another show WINNING with that georgeous down!|
|MommaEwe||Posted 07/16/12 01:56PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|MommaEwe||Posted 07/16/12 02:11PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Well here goes my advice, I wish my family could have made the show in kountze this weekend, hearing the comments I think it must have been a good quality show.
In regard to judges, I think alot of inexperienced showers and families will take the advice of a judge and tweak their programs and I think this does become a problem, if in fact a judge is not as experienced as others, but everyone does have their own opinion on what they look for . That is why we research judges and the type of sheep they like before buyin for a major.
However, I also believe that we will always go to a show and you will frequently be let down by the comments a judge makes or how you might place. For me and my family we just use these shows to have fun, take it as a learning experience and look forward to the next show. At the end of the day it simply is what it is and it was all a learning experience. I tell my kids this , if you go out and you win and win and win then you absolutely never learn how to loose and never learn how to better yourself. I would simply rely on your breeder and other strong show families for advice, when going to prospect shows you just have to get what you get and understand that from the get go. A judge is like any person in takes time and experience and they have to be given the chance also to grow in their profession. I can guarantee you that they didn't get to judging without any experience they also had training in some sort of fashion just as I learned to start a IV in nursing school.
|MommaEwe||Posted 07/16/12 02:18PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I remember a show in march of this year here in town that we had a judge that we could say didn't have a clue in our opinion but I remeber one of the biggest jocks standing next to me saying the same thing and sure my family talked about it for a few days but , he chose to his preference.. We looked forward to takin those lambs to Houston the next week an getting in the sale and the other almost makin the sale. It is only one day we just have to be aware of what strong points the animal we show have and know when to take the advice of those judges and new show families should always be advised to seek the help of experienced show families and breeders prior to changing their programs. |
|la1lucy||Posted 07/16/12 02:20PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I could not have said it better myself mommaewe! I just don't want my daughter getting on here and feeling like she did something wrong she didn't! And we as a family went for fun not placing! We learned alot had fun and that is that. she came away from this show saying how much fun it was and that is all i care about and her as well! We learned alot and had fun. And nobody is worried about winning or losing. My daughter knows who to take advice from so no big deal!! I am a nurse too ..ha ha. Wonder if I could still start an IV after being in a dr office for so long! lol|
|MommaEwe||Posted 07/16/12 02:24PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I bet so U might just need some refreshing but u never forget! |
|nancee||Posted 07/16/12 02:24PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|thats funny I kind of was concerned about my daughter getting on here and thinking she did something wrong as well. That is why i said that the kids were fine not bashing anyone b/c they had lots of fun. But my daughter says she listens to the Fritzs, OG, and Kassiesmom and wouldn't have ever listened to the judge's advice anyway. And she isn't concerned with winning or losing. She likes to meet people, practice and learn. |
|nancee||Posted 07/16/12 02:27PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|plus if the judge is inexperienced the only way for her to get exp is to get in and do it just the same as we the new showers have to ya know?|
|bigbonesnshag||Posted 07/16/12 03:21PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|golden1 started this post then never returned after it got heated.i`m going back to og comment as i to would like to have known what the judge was supposed to have seen in a tampered with lamb.
|coondawg||Posted 07/16/12 05:29PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|tamper or not to tamper is the question. do we need judges tampering with this question whether or not lambs have been tampered with. this seems to tamper my mind on a few things. the judge is hired to pick the best in the ring not hired to say a lamb has been tampered with or not. In saying i have now tampered with this question thou asked.
|golden1||Posted 07/16/12 05:31PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I would think that you could "feel" the difference in the hardness down the back and the butt. What about all these straight line scars and marks all over the lamb? Evidently I was mistaken and the lamb ran through a fence somewhere. Looks like I've also put too high of an expectation on the livestock judges.|
|califmom||Posted 07/16/12 05:33PM Changed 07/16/12 05:34PM|
|LOL! (that was an LOL to coondawg's post)|
|bearkat||Posted 07/16/12 05:38PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I have not been around long enough to know all the ways people tamper with lambs but when you mention scars and marks all over a lamb are you referring to those left by a track dog?|
|ksjoat||Posted 07/16/12 05:40PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Is a tampered lamb like a woman's breasts? They always say you can tell real ones from fake ones. Are lambs the same? LOL |
|califmom||Posted 07/16/12 06:23PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|solaura||Posted 07/16/12 06:28PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|In my opinion, it is not for the judge to judge juice in a lamb. That is why good shows drug test. And yes Texas border collies do leave hardend and scarred lambs.|
|SHADOWRAN||Posted 07/16/12 06:30PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|now this is getting fun, I guess we can feel the lambs and well we could feel the oh I will get slapped and maybe kicked and shot.lol|
|ksjoat||Posted 07/16/12 06:38PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Maybe in California Shadowran, I think we are talking Texas. Not nearly so many pesky rules. LOL |
|kevnae||Posted 07/16/12 08:00PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Golden1...are you referring to a Texas show this weekend?|
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/16/12 08:14PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|The only one who voiced their distain for that judge was me and me alone. I don't want that judge to be associated with that show.......it is a good show put on by good people. I am sure their next judge will be much better. They and other organizations like them get sold a hog now and then. It is not their faults. All the kids were good sports, none complained. A few are probably well on their way to wrecking their lambs about now. I feel bad for them. Not every new family is fortunate enough to have support or good advice especially where I am. Now this was an extreme situation that just don't sit right with me. This should, however, serve as a good example of why new families should never put stock into a prospect show judges evaluation or advice. The internet can't give them The guidance they need. A judge is looked up to as an expert when you don't know any better. I would have never said a word if there wasn't true cause to beware. Now, take that for what that is. Haters keep hating.........new families beware and take a lesson.|
|bigiron59||Posted 07/16/12 08:28PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
| no dog in this hunt. But I would think that most any "seasoned" show person would know better that to take "any" judges advice to heart. esp an "unseasoned" judge. Chalk it up to a bad day. and think about the rookies that follow the advice of the judge. That will only be to your advantage if you know what you are doing and ahve your eye on the prize.|
|OG||Posted 07/16/12 09:15PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Solaura expressed my thoughts completely...especially the statement "it's not for the judge to judge juice in a lamb." Those of us who are fortunate enough to judge a few shows are hired to give our honest opinion concerning the placing of the species we are paid to judge. If I thought a lamb looked too perfect and placed it down in class and in reality it was that good, then I have done that exhibitor and family a big dis-service. When I judge a show I hope that I satisfy every exhibitor/parent/breeder/spectator at that show, however, the person I truly try to satisfy is myself...I will admit, on more than one occassion I've second guessed myself, usually on the placement of a grand or reserve, and when I've done that the plane ride home became twice as long...Sure, there have been times when judging I've suspected an animal has been tampered with, however, since I have no direct proof,I place the animal where I think it should be placed based on it's appearance/quality the day of the show...besides, there are a few "appearance enhancers" out there that are so good at altering the natural appearance of an animal that show drug test or tampering test cannot even catch it...and, I bet my good friend Sheepherder007 knows some of the select few I'm thinking of...right, Rex.....OG|
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/16/12 09:28PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Bigiron....... I am not worried one bit about that judge. However, how is that good sportsmanship? Do I teach my daughter to just watch people crash and burn because they don't know better? I don't see anything wrong with passing on the basics. More experienced people should help the less experienced people learn the ropes. That is a good life lesson. Now, if you were at work and a new employee just started, wouldn't youngest them trained? Better yet if you were new at a company wouldn't you want someone to show you the ropes? Or......would it be right for them to set back and watch you crash and burn? I am just treating others the way I wish I was treated myself when we started out.|
|PeteM||Posted 07/16/12 09:49PM Changed 07/17/12 08:19AM|
|Cathy I see where you are trying to come from, but as someone that had success, when you try to help people they sometimes don't trust you due to you "giving bad advice to keep them down". I know you would not do that. I have started three young people in my county with lamb projects. I would lease them keeper ewe lambs and supervise feeding (they were my ewes, I would want them fed right). Two of these families decided then that I was cheating them, because my girls would do better than them. They have went out on their own and have done worse than with me. They still believe that we were doing them wrong.
Long story short, my advice is to take the win, encourage the ones that you thought got burried and given bad advice and go on. This is not the place probably to voice your concerns, but contact the families and try and help them.
|coondawg||Posted 07/16/12 11:04PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|being treated the way you would like to be treated. i like that hmmm shoe is on the other foot now, but i will not comment. not here to argue with anyone most of us have spoke our minds and been in the same situation.
|coondawg||Posted 07/16/12 11:05PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|shadow, LOL on feeling them.|
|texasgurl||Posted 07/16/12 11:06PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|what show are you talking about golden? I think people are all talking about a different show than Kassiemom. Anyway kassiemom helped me with my down and my blackface and she was nothing but gracious to my mom and I. We didn't care about winning or losing just learning. And I had fun no matter what the outcome. And trust me I listen to the right people. My breeder, OG-who is my bestie! lol and kassiesmom who had helped me so much! I am thankful for all the kindness of people!! And this is supposed to be about the kids! us~|
|SnarkyArkie||Posted 07/16/12 11:10PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Amen Pete, tried to help a few people that figured we only wanted to get them buy our lambs or we only wanted to make sure we knew what kind of lambs they had and what we needed to beat them with. We used to give a free 1 day basic lamb clinic with our boys to kinda get them used to helping the next set of newbies and try to promote market lambs in a county that has a small lamb turnout at the fair. We were accused of trying to scope out the competition to using the clinic to sell our lambs. Only took one person to start the controversy and turned a positive chance for my kids to help the new kids learn to feed, care for and show a lamb into a negative "why did we even bother" feeling. Now the kids do the same thing but through the Arkansas Jr. Sheep Council lamb camp and there have been no accusations of alterior motives since.
KM, to add to Pete's comment "Long story short, my advice is to take the win, encourage the ones that you thought got burried and given bad advice and go on"... I have noticed a common phrase you use when speaking about helping families, whether its picking lambs from a "greedy breeder" or helping a family that has gotten "bad advice" or helping a family that doesn't like how the judge placed them. You use the term "I get stuck having to tell the families, or I get stuck having to make the best out of a crappy lamb or I get stuck having to assure the new family not to listen to the judge". If you feel you are "getting stuck" while helping, I would feel bad for having you help me. I have never "got stuck" while helping someone. There is only so much you can do and the "get stuck" part has to become the new family's learning experience, not yours. If the family never gets stuck, they don't learn the hard lessons it takes to shop, show and place in a show. You are doing these new families, and your own daughter a disservice by being the one that always gets stuck. Offer advice, answer questions, give tips but stop taking on the responsibility to the point you feel like you are getting stuck fixing something.
And as far as treating others the way you hope to be treated or bigirons daughter were to be treated, how would you feel if Kassie were a new judge and someone came on here and bashed her lack of knowledge of market goats? Ruined her reputation for any future work based solely on her inexperience of judging goats. Would you approve of a parent that bashes a new kid judging in the show ring?
|PeteM||Posted 07/16/12 11:27PM Changed 07/17/12 08:18AM|
|EmsoffLambs||Posted 07/17/12 12:29AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I can see where KassiesMom is coming from. An experienced feeder or breeder can spot a bad judge and sift through their comments pretty easily. But for new folks, if they're paying attention and trying to learn, incorrect comments on the mic can steer someone in the wrong direction.
Case in point, when I was first getting into breeding, before I found this site, there were NO club lamb breeders in our area. Zero. So I was on my own with what I could learn from observing shows. At one show I watched, a judge use a very wrinkled lamb to win a class. The lamb may very well have been the best lamb in the class, I don't even recall. The show wasn't very competitive at the time. On the mic, I recall the judge saying, "Some people may say this lamb has too many wrinkles, but we don't eat the skin, so I'm not holding it against him." I took that to mean that it didn't matter if a lamb had wrinkles or not.
I have to agree that if a person clearly does not know a species, they shouldn't be judging it. I feel like I might be able to sort a small class of lambs alright. But I sure wouldn't walk into the ring to try to sort steers or hogs. I'd make a fool of myself and probably steer some impressionable kids in the wrong direction. So I get it, KassiesMom.
|SnarkyArkie||Posted 07/17/12 01:06AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Another thing to keep in mind is there may not have been many judges to pick from or the judge replaced a no-show judge at the last minute. Maybe sponsorships to fund a good judge fell through so they took a cheaper, less qualified judge, so many variables that could happen and we have experienced most all scenarios in our jackpot shows. As Beau said, there are some judges that have a red flag next to them that we will never put our entry fees in to show to, we will never suggest another show to hire them and as long as we put on our jackpot show, we will never hire them. But unless they do something completely unethical, I don't see much sense in bashing a judge.
Until you put on a jackpot show, you don't know what it takes to get a good show together. The way I see it, if you got the chance to get your kids and lambs out at a show, you're lucky and you should be grateful to all that put the show on. Its not as easy as you might think.
|EmsoffLambs||Posted 07/17/12 01:19AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|We've had a lamb judge have to judge hogs one time when the hog judge was a no-show. So I could see that happening.
Here's the worst though, one time they had to round up a replacement auctioneer because the contract one was drunk the Sunday morning of the auction.
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/17/12 04:31AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Snarky.......... there is a lot of messed up stuff that happens out there and it is sad. It is the situation I get stuck with.......awkward situations not the act of helping. All I can do is offer guidance, people are free to choose to listen or not. I have a family that didn't take selection advice and brought home a Lamb from Missouri for a March county show. She has poor structure and is 90lbs and fat right now. They are in trouble for their target show. They just asked me about that and I was honest. Right after that this same judge placed them 3rd in class and told them their Lamb needs to be fatter without even touching the ribs. That horrible advice is both gonna hurt them more and make me out to be the bad guy.|
|bigiron59||Posted 07/17/12 07:33AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|KM, you CHOSE to interject yourself in the other people's problems. We help a lot of people, If they do not choose to follow my advice, and do thier own thing, I can not help them. I can buy them books, but I can not make them read. People choose thier own path in life. We are all faced with problems. The solutions we choose to solve the problems , however our ours. Some people, including some on the board, can not be helped.|
|SnarkyArkie||Posted 07/17/12 07:41AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|In the email you sent us yesterday when you sent the pictures of the 15 month old ewe, my wife said she looked like an over conditioned brood ewe and far from a prospect and you said "Texas likes softer made big butted wide sheep like that". If that's the case, then a 90 pound march lamb is not a far stretch from that. We have 90 pound march lambs that are still a little green.
Again, the best you can do for these families is just say one judges opinion on this day. We have never put much weight on the judges comments in most jackpots. Occassionally we will have an excellent judge that can talk a sheep and people know who to listen too, but to get so emotionally involved like that does no one any good. And bashing a judge based on what they say on the mic serves no positive purpose that I can see.
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/17/12 08:05AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Whatever Snarky...... this Lamb will be 180lbs by that fair with her chest dragging the ground. I don't interject anything. If people ask me I will tell them. They asked about the Lamb in question and I told them I wouldn'buy it. They chose what They wanted and then asked me how to fix it the other day. I told them watch her weight and feed careful. That is not being nosey or bossy as implied.|
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/17/12 08:17AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Whatever Snarky...... this Lamb will be 180lbs by that fair with her chest dragging the ground. I don't interject anything. If people ask me I will tell them. They asked about the Lamb in question and I told them I wouldn'buy it. They chose what They wanted and then asked me how to fix it the other day. I told them watch her weight and feed careful. That is not being nosey or bossy as implied.|
|thelambsweat||Posted 07/17/12 08:25AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Bigiron59 made a good point. You advised the family, if they chose to follow your advice fine. If not let them walk in the ring in March and learn the hard way. Don't let there problem worry you unless they are actively seeking help and are willing to follow a proper program.|
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/17/12 08:26AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Bigiron, I realize that some people can't be helped. Some don't need to be encouraged to keep going down the wrong path either that was my point. Situations like that are why some kids come to this site 2 weeks from show freaking out because their Lamb is too big or too thin. If people ask for help I will. I tell them all I can do is tell you what works for me. Many times I direct them to someone I know is an expert on a particular issue. I genuinely like to see every kid do the best they can with their projects......if theit Lamb comes out better than ours good for them. As I have said, I am way too kind hearted when it comes to kids I am the first to admit it......I don't see it as a bad thing......perhaps I can't be helped with that. My mistake here is expecting people to understand my compassion.|
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/17/12 08:30AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Anthony, I have pretty much done just that. Haven't seen the Lamb till the other day when they approached me desperate for help. They will come to me again later when it is worse.|
|thelambsweat||Posted 07/17/12 08:38AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Yuuup! Wait two weeks prior to show and then look for a magical fix. See it all the time. The project starts at selection and continues through the show.|
|redroper||Posted 07/17/12 08:55AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|KM- If this is the last "bad" judge these folks have in their show career, they will be fortunate indeed.
Most of us have learned that we will win some we shouldn't have and will lose some we thought we should have.
I can identify with the Missouri lamb that place 3rd.
Several years ago at our county lamb weigh-in, a super nice family wanted me to evaluate their lamb selections. The son's lamb was really cool, with a massive top and a big ol' leg. I really thought he should have been in the run for banner. The daughter had picked (as she had most years before) a frail blue ewe lamb. I explained
how she had alot of the problems of blue sheep of that time. She was tight flanked, deeper chested, fine boned, with not alot of muscle expression and pinched in her pins. Do you care to guess which lamb was Grand? It happens.
Sadly, the daughter and her dad thought they had it figured out and so they bought out the flock of that breeder and started selling lambs. That lasted about four years. We offered them free breedings to our rams and supported their efforts, but they were convinced that blue type sheep was what they wanted to raise and promote.
At the end of the day all you can do is offer help. You see it every day on this site. People ask for advice on their lambs, and then you get a dozen reasons why the advice offered is flawed, because the picture doesn't really capture the true greatness of the lamb.
Now, if I can offer a little advice regarding the judge. Let it go. You are starting to come off as pretty vindictive, especially when in a month or so, no one (including the family with the down) will remember the great injustice. Voice your concern to show management and leave it at that.
|DonD1||Posted 07/17/12 09:49AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|There is also room for honest disagreement on what the ideal prospect is. If there wasn't we'd all agree on the relative price ranking of lambs at a sale and they'd place in that order the rest of the year.
There are lot's of reasons for judges picking a lamb you are quite sure will not work. They may not be "current" in selection type, they may simply not like what the more commonly selected type is, and they genuinely think the lamb will make a better market lamb and they might be right.
In our area we still have a pretty good size pool of frame judges that will judge some of the smaller market shows. There is a tendency for them to think the fine boned blue lamb with good muscle definition is still the ideal lamb. We had exactly the same experience as redroper. At a recent show, we sold several lambs in the class including a fine bone blue lamb that the little girl fell in love with and took her home when we were selling lambs. Well the red ribbon lamb in the class is the one I felt best selling and the class winner is the one I felt bad about selling. The lambs will be shown again and I seriously doubt they will ever place like that again but at that show, that judge called them like he saw them.
I have a recollection of a really awesome looking young prospect lamb in the OLSS a few years ago that the owner later said didn't grow out well at all and didn't get shown.
Bottom line - KM you might be right, but we all are wrong on these things sometimes too. Time will tell.
|KassiesMom||Posted 07/17/12 10:06AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Vendictive is not my intentions at all. Perhaps some are right and this site is no longer a place for exhibitors and more like the old BW site. Every time I speak the truth about something everyone gets their panties in a wad. I am kind of sad so many people have me all summed up and have never met me and don't know me. It don't matter I know what type of a person I am. I mean nothing hostile I think the problem is I can't figure out why many of you can't relate to me and many of you can't understand why I can't relate to you. I will just agree to disagree. If folks have a question email me.|
|thelambsweat||Posted 07/17/12 10:18AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Most of us on here have been heel bit a time or two and some have taken the whole sword. Don't give up.|
|texasgurl||Posted 07/17/12 12:28PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|KassiesMom dont leave mylamb cause if it wasnt for you and the line of people coming up to us telling us not to listen to that judge we probably would of done something wrong And you help too many people on here too!! If it wasnt for you, OG, and the breeder we would be totally lost cause our ag teacher SUCKS!!|
|coondawg||Posted 07/17/12 12:35PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|im the baboon on lion king. whop on the head with the stick. why worry about it is in the past....
i have not read any thing on here or taken it out of text that these good folks have gotten their panties in a wad. all of us have basically said the same thing but you always come back with something for to try and change our minds about judges decisions. do we disagree each other? yes. do we agree with each? yes. point is that is what makes the world go around. I have been in this showing thing for over thirty years and i still havent figured it out...
KM we have been there and done that. if not we will eventually.
like lamb sweat said we have been bit on the heel a time or two. with his last sentence dont give up......
control what you can control. the rest will work its self out.
|thelambsweat||Posted 07/17/12 12:54PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Coondawg well put. If the small talk back and forth is all we have to worry about, life is good.|
|TXsheepRaiser||Posted 07/18/12 04:15AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|KM all your doing is feeding the wolves... |
|nancee||Posted 07/18/12 10:21AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Alright golden1 with no profile...you started a revolution! My family truely appreciates the people on this site who have helped. lambsweat, OG, KM, sheapbear, and many others. And we are not a family who will be panicked 2 weeks before show. We have learned so much and apply what we learn. My daughter applies to her projects. Lets end this post on a positive note and just say thanks for all your help you are all good people! |
|SHADOWRAN||Posted 07/18/12 11:02AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|What was this post about anyways?
|bigbonesnshag||Posted 07/18/12 11:39AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|it was about a good genetically bred lamb that was on a good feeding program along with exercise that gave it a amazing feel or one that was tampered with and it was supposed to have been the judges job to know the differance and base thier opinion on that who should have won.
heck i`m just happy when the judge can find the best one and has a consistancy throughout the show.
|SnarkyArkie||Posted 07/18/12 01:04PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Jim, something about getting bit in the heels by a wolf in sheeps clothing and wadded up panties|
|SHADOWRAN||Posted 07/18/12 10:54PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|lol I needed a good laugh|
|coondawg||Posted 07/19/12 11:54AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|yup tampered lambs along with tampered minds. wadded panties fake like in women bit somewhere along the way. but snarky that is pretty funny.
actually i thought this was a fun post after it got started.
|califmom||Posted 07/19/12 11:59AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|It sure had it's moments didn't it!|
|OG||Posted 07/19/12 12:07PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Beau..I believe your mind has been tampered with, however, since Golden1 hasn't pointed out to me how to discern such illegal activity, I do not know what to look for to help me sort out what you are legally compent of expressing through normal thought processes, therefore, in my mind you are still a genius capable of making rational decesions...OG|
|Sheepherder007||Posted 07/19/12 01:43PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
| I thought it was about pot sniffing crack heads. BOY DID I GOOF|
|SnarkyArkie||Posted 07/19/12 02:45PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|In all my years of mental instability, I've never felt more at home than this discussion.|
|Shoein||Posted 07/19/12 03:42PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|oh I love you guys! This conversation has seriously MADE my day! Crack heads and panties, tampered minds......wow.... |
|solaura||Posted 07/19/12 03:58PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|This bifurcated post certainly activated various grey cells. Yet we still don't know exact criteria on how a judge is supposed to "know" and "judge" a tampered with lamb. Nor do I know the the real experience level of the complainor and complainee in the second part. Some are "experienced" with a few years showing a few lambs, while others are still just "experienced" after a lifetime (eg. OG and KY). Just the old lawyer in me makes me think caveat lector!|
|califmom||Posted 07/19/12 04:12PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Hands down my favorite post on this thread..ksjoat's comparing tampered with lambs to tampered with..ladies...made me literally laugh out loud.|
|solaura||Posted 07/19/12 04:19PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|And yes I forgot, how are we to judge the Miss America contest now?|
|Kyhampbreeder||Posted 07/19/12 04:32PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Handling the top for a full natural feel ? |
|DonD1||Posted 07/19/12 04:46PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
Larry has so trumped your favorite post
|califmom||Posted 07/19/12 04:52PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I don't know...ksjoat's original still has the shock value...Larry's while good, is riding it's coattails..LOL!!|
|ARlambs||Posted 07/19/12 06:24PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|You all need a side show at NAILE, we could collect admission and fund the drug screens for the market lamb champions. Problem solved! Good entertainment and we could identify the tampered lambs! ;)|
|califmom||Posted 07/19/12 06:32PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I nominate Larry to be the handler.|
|ksjoat||Posted 07/19/12 06:41PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Will shag on the legs help win this new contest? If it does, I think I might win. Ha ha. |
|califmom||Posted 07/19/12 06:51PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Only if you blend it!|
|DownWithHair||Posted 07/19/12 10:39PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|The posts here over the day have made.my.day!
I second the drug testing fundraiser!
|Sheepherder007||Posted 07/19/12 11:14PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|We will need to check all pockets for hidden crack pipes, rock salt(or whatever the smoke of the day is), syringes full of test pee, flasks with fine Kentucky refreshment,water balloons for top rack enhancement (usually have two),pre-rolled cigarettes(easier to just ban smoking), but then you would have to ban chewing too as I understand that is a NEW craze(who the H--- wants to eat alfalfa) and we will have our circus for all to enjoy.
If you bring any of these into ring you have to pay a fine to get out. That way we could double our fund raising efforts and actually test a few.
I volunteer to hold the flasks for safe drinking, Opps I mean keeping. I will need at least one helper, any volunteers?
|SHADOWRAN||Posted 07/19/12 11:49PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|we could always use one of them new fangled xray machines at the airport to walk through we when is go to the ring that way we could see all them sheep fake boobs.
|califmom||Posted 07/20/12 12:32AM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|Count me in...I volunteer to guard the flasks.|
|golden1||Posted 07/21/12 12:40PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|I must say all of you have provided some entertainment that I have thoroughly enjoyed! Thanks for all the laughs!!|
|4Hlamber||Posted 07/21/12 12:43PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|i don't know guys... every judge is difrint![?]|
|4Hlamber||Posted 07/21/12 12:44PM Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM|
|HAHAHA YEP VEARY FUNNY!|
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