Home Messages Impact of ET

Impact of ET

	Member	Message
	DonD1	Posted 06/03/12 09:03AM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Jim's latest hypothetical question got me thinking about this but I decided that it was enough of a tangent that starting a new thread would be better. To me ET is a game changer. This year we're thrilled that we finally have a set of twin ewe lambs out of our best ewe. This doubles the number of her daughters in our flock. In our flock given how her other daughters have done this is almost as impactfull as new ram really clicking. What ET is doing to the flocks that are using it is, they are getting 3-8 daughters out of their elite ewes per year for multiple years. The big power of this isn't from a one time "flush", but the cumulative impact. Think about the long term impact of a 200 ewe flock flushing their 4 best proven ewes. In traditional breeding those 4 ewes might put 20 daughters into the flock over the years. Assuming these 4 ewes turn out to be ewes that flush well and can do it multiple times. You instead could have 40 to 80 daughters in the flock. Now, from those daughters pick out 4 more elite ewes to flush. Given the larger pool you're more likely to have even better new flush ewes. We all see ET lambs advertised for sale. What isn't getting advertised is the fact that these guys are keeping several ewe lambs out of these flushes and selling off the "culled ewes". To me the great increase in what appear to be really good bred ewes in the fall co-incides with this. They have to either grow the flock in size or sell of what would have been true keeper sheep in year's past. I see no evidence ET in the breeding of show sheep is a fad. It's here to stay which means in flocks using this practice they truly have super females compared with a natural breeding flock. Gentlemen, the gap will be growing between the ET users and the natural breeders. Yes, of course not every ewe flushed gives great lambs but it is simply making the odds better for those that use this technique.
	bigiron59	Posted 06/03/12 09:15AM  Changed 06/03/12 09:17AM
		I think you are correct Don, in that ET is game changer, But the more "eggs in 1 basket" so to speak is the less diversity in that flock. They can not adjust to trends as well, and the more alike they make thier flock, the harder the fall will be when they hit the wall. Seen it in cattle. Sheep guys are no differnt. I do have families in my flcok, and each has thier atribute. If I had 500 ewes, I would think that I would still want several families, not just 1 or 2. I know an many cattle deals going south when trends turn, and they had "the worng kind". This hamp deal will turn, and the guys that all have "1 kind" will be in a hurt.Think about 80 full sisters bred to the "new deal" and he did NOT work. Hows that going to impact that breeder that year.
	TwoWillowJDM	Posted 06/05/12 01:08PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Big Iron I would agree with you. As a breeder we shouldn’t chase trends. I breed sheep that I like. Always have and always will. But if a breeder has a few ewes that they believe are ideal in their flock. And those ewes have raised successful lambs for them in the past. The quickest & greatest way for them (the breeder) to improve their flock would be to “Flush” those ewes. One could even use a breeding program with the different ewe families you’re described very successfully. For instance we are working with a very large sheep dairy in our area. We are setting them up with four different sheep families in their flock. In the sheep dairy world they are breeding for many different traits than most on this list breed for. We are working with their milk records, udder type, nipple placement, and lambing parity and on & on. In each ewe family we will be flushing the top producing ewes that score high with the traits I described. Keeping rams from the flush to breed to the other three ewe families and tracking their daughters milk productions. Ultimately our goal is to produce dairy sheep with predictable EPD’s. Using this same example in the wethersire world is the quickest way for a flock of any size to move forward in the shortest amount of time. Yes we breed for phonotypical traits. And I can see the argument for not breeding ewe family to ewe family. But the fact remains, once a breeder has a “Flush Quality Ewe” the quickest & cheapest way to improve your flock is through Embryo Transfer. IMO John West Coast Genetics
	SHADOWRAN	Posted 06/05/12 03:42PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		But it would be a great way of have a solid ewe base in a shorter time that all look very similar, a cookie cutter flock. jim
	bigbonesnshag	Posted 06/05/12 04:57PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		i think we are playing the "if" game because none of us are brave enough to try it but lets just play it out.john is in the business and could shed more light but with my thinking of buying 2 outstanding ewes,ai/et getting 16 eggs(half will be ewes)waiting a couple years and flushing the 8(if they were worthy)you could end up with 2 sets of 25 top of the line ewes.wide variable but looks like depending on how outstanding the ewes were and travel cost this could be around 20k in 3 yrs.i don`t think you could buy 20 sisters that would be equal for that price.
	bigiron59	Posted 06/05/12 06:54PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		The problem that I see is finding the "stud" that works on yor ewes. Thier just are not enough proven studs that are available . Their are some very good studs, but are your ewes going to complement the studs. High risk, high reward. Millions, in not billions have been spent on ET in Cattle, and any small stud will have more bulls than all the sheep studs combined. I am not saying you can't hit a home run. Guys like Miller, Brian Johnson, ect, have the linebred ewe base, and the linebred studs to make it work. Most of the rest have a nice set of crosses, that they are going to breed to crosses, and hope for the best. 2 or 3 genrations of ET will start to multiply success. Is round will be a roll of the dice. Good luck guys.
	MMLB	Posted 06/05/12 07:01PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		The quickest and easiest way to change your flock is to have a set of genetically consistent, phenotypically consistent set of ewes that you can accurately identify the positives and negatives and introduce a ram that is equally predictable. You will not only be able to adjust much quicker to trends but will have a much larger percentage of sheep that are good rather than just a handful that work and the rest that do not. Diversity in any breeding program no matter how big or small or any species that it happens in will never be as valuable or as flexible as breeding the same kind over and over and that is best achieved by genetic similarities. If you have 25 different ewe families or sire groups represented in a flock of 200 ewes and those 25 families each represent one single negative trait that you must try to breed around then you will either need 25 rams to breed each to 8 ewes or you will have 3 rams to try and address 25 separate problems. Your success will be very marginal and you can forget trying to catch the trend because you will have many other issues to contend with... If your flock consists of 5 ewe families or sire groups all representing genetically similar or phenotypically similar females you can select 3 bucks if you chose to that all three offer different things and you can breed them confidently knowing that you have a buck who only has to fix the negative trait of 2-3 ewe families rather than 10 bad traits... Don't let the age old argument of "no genetic diversity" when talking of ET and cloning ever discourage you from participating... That is precisely the reason to go forward with it is to minimize the diversity and lack of predictability.
	vet93	Posted 06/05/12 07:25PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I think we have to be carefull in how we use ET. I do not think that it is for everyone. I have seen more ET failures than successes for a number of reasons: 1. The ewes don't flush well or the recips to recieve well due to many factors such as weather, technique, stress, sterility, etc... 2. We all know that breeding a good one to another good one doesn't always produce what you want, especially if the genetics are not lined up. 3. After you have them bred there are many things that can happen that decrease your number of offspring such as poor milkers, weather, disease outbreaks, poor mothering, etc.. While this also happens with natural breeding, many times we cannot afford the losses as easily with the costs of ET. 4. Many people are not willing to take a short term financial deficit in order to build numbers for the long haul due to lack of patience or funds. I think that there are some good reasons to do ET for the reasons that have been stated above, but we have to be careful. I think that the producer that has the best chance to succeed is the one who already has his genetics lined up and can match his dam/sire with a greater degree of predictability in regards to offspring. I think that you need to concentrate on ewe/ram combinations that you KNOW produce great offspring rather than matching pairs that you HOPE will "nick". And lastly I think that you have to be a very astute manager who is willing to pay attention to detail, find someone that is very good at ET to do the work (not the vet down the street who has an endoscope and wants to dabble) and be willing to stick to your guns once you start the program. That is why I think that ET can be a very useful tool for a small percentage of producers but not for all producers. Due to the low flush rates etc... It is also much harder to maintain profitability when compaired to the cattle industry...just a few thoughts.
	DonD1	Posted 06/05/12 09:46PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		BigIron, ET quite independent of line breeding. In another post you put your 10% is where you get your cream. Well, just assume you take the top half of the cream and ET them. Each year you ET whatever you figure are your top 5% of your ewes. Essentially, you're going to be able to keep replacement ewes only out of that cream, (5% of the ewes your ETing and then the next best 5%). Do this cumulatively over 5 years how much faster do you get to whatever our goals are? Even if you decide you went in the wrong direction. Assume you decided chase the hottest trend and Hamp went cold and Southdown crosses were where you decided it was at. Buy 4 Southdown yearling ewes, ET them for a few years and all of a sudden you totally switched your genetic base. (I'm not saying this particular plan is smart, but it's the power of ET.) Why do you think there are so many good bred ewes available in the fall now? OK, the fact they sell for several thousand dollars helps. But, these guys aren't ruining their genetic pool, they have ET ewe lambs out of these ewes or other elite ewes replacing them.
	bigiron59	Posted 06/05/12 11:29PM  Changed 06/05/12 11:30PM
		I won't argue with to much Don, Your plan is solid. My basis has been with cattle, so maybe the sheep plan will work better. Why do you think there are so many good bred ewes available in the fall now?This is debateable. I don't recall any national champs coming out of any of these, or noteable stud or ewes. I do know of quite a few that were open, lambed much later than "expected" so don't really know which ram was bred to. Quite a few that had no bag, or endup up open. To be honest . Anyone who thinks a breeder is selling his top end bred, needs a reality check. They unload some to make room, move older ewes, to make room for newer gentics, and some of these bring way more coin than they are worth. I know this will raise the wrath of some, and I have bought bred ewes.I agree that ET is a good tool. Will it be the used properly? I can say from the train wrecks that I have seen, and continue to see in the cattle world . No. We we sheep herders do it any differntly no. So you have 25 Et full sibs from the lamb that won louivlle. So he was the coolest thing since ice cream. 14 are criplles, 4 are parrotmouth. 6 are spider carriers 1 is kinda like the champ, but not realy. What are you going to do with them.Cull them. Of coarse not, you spent 25000 for the ewe, and you have how much invested in recipt, Ai, drugs, and ect. Nope, you will do just like the cattle guys, You are going to try to "fix" them with some "complementary genectis" Gentically they are the same, phenotypically they are wrecks. Same should be said for cloning. I have quit a bit of experience with that front. Clones are not duplicates. They are repelicates. They are not indentical. They had gentics codes(patterns) that are idententical. They do not look alike,and they sure do not breed alike. How many of those ET lambs sell just like the rest. 300 for a poor one.
	MMLB	Posted 06/06/12 01:57AM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Big iron you've got to consider the people who are doing the flushing. Just because he is a cattle breeder who utilizes ET does not make him a competent cattleman or stockman. Very very few of the club calf breeders can be considered stockman with practical knowledge of animal breeding, production models and real life application of functional livestock. If you are a multiplier of livestock and have no intentions of building a breeding program with a plan and direction and your sole hope is to raise THE one or two to keep you going for another year then ET will not make you any better than the guy not using it. But there are true stockman who grew up in production who are breeders and not multipliers who are beginning to utilize ET and once they get full swing then you will be hard pressed to catch up with them. The SMART cattle guys will not keep one just because it is a flush mate to a national champion if it has major problems. The multipliers will.... Which brings me to another point. That is the whole reason that I find ET and line breeding as a must. Within every animal is a set of genes that are ready to be expressed when the animal is being made in the mother. Only a fraction of those genes actually show up in that animal. Example is- just because a ram is big racked and level does not mean that his maternal grandmother could not have been narrow racked and round. So this big racked, level ram now starts throwing babies with no rack or are un level. Simply put, he still has the genes to have no rack but if you use him on a set of ewes who are physically big racked and line bred to be big racked then a majority of the time he will throw a big racked one... If you think he has a big enough rack to change your ewes positively because yours aren't powerful enough there and you turn him in with them, all you have done is dilute the big rack gene within his babies all because his gene only had 1 or 2 generations of that good trait.... There are a ton of factors that determine gene expression including the environment in the womb and sometimes after they are born... So if I have 10 ewes that have 5-6 generations of desirable traits bred into them and I flush them to a ram that has 5-6 generations of similar desirable traits and I get 20 daughters out of the flush and cull the 2-3 whos dirty family traits from long ago snuck out then I just increased my set of 5-7 generations of line bred desirable traits from 10 ewes to 27 ewes. The only other way to get 27 females with concentrated positive traits of up to 5-6 years is to literally breed them for 5-6 years and keep and cull the ones that do and do not show the traits that you are looking for. I've done with ET in 1 fall what will take someone else 10 years to accomplish. Now with that said- flushing a ewe who is a genetic freak and looks very little like either parent is likely going to only yield you a very very small percentage of offspring that have any similarities to her. That is why line breeding and ET, though very different I think are essential to one another. The reason clones do not look or breed exactly the same as the original is precisely because of what I said about how the genes are expressed during gestation of the clone.... Just because your original was huge racked does not mean that he was not genetically capable of being average racked. So you clone him and the clone comes out average racked.( doesn't mean he is not capable of throwing a big rack because the gene is still in his DNA). But, this does not mean that they are not genetically identical. Gene expression can and can not be predicted. There are some traits that are considered highly heritable, some are moderately heritable and lowly heritable. Identify the highly heritable traits and chances are your clone will have those traits. Identify the lowly heritable traits and chances are it will be a toss up which come thru. Clone a buck that has 5-6 generations of the lowly heritable traits and it will only take a couple generations of the highly heritable traits and your clone will likely be pretty similar to the original because you've diluted the genetic variation within his DNA. Clone a buck who looks nothing like mom or nothing like dad and you will likely get something that looks nothing like either.... This is also the reason that full siblings or twins rarely look alike...... Line breeding is essential to be a breeder and not a multiplier and it is essential to have a truly successful ET program.
	bigiron59	Posted 06/06/12 08:20AM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I would agree with most of thsie. And my cattle obervation has been from big breeding operations as well as clubbies and infact quite a bit of dairy ET work, which is where it probably is mosy heavily untilized.The guy that thinks he is going to buy 3 ewes, flush them to the "ram of the year" and get that champion flock in one generation is going to sadly mistaken. It will be a breeder , who understands what kinda of females are needed, and linebreeds them, to perefction, just like natural matings.Millers, and Wheatons come to mind, but plenty of those et deals will not work out, just like natural matings, and peeps will be selling junk, trying to recoup cost, beacsue it is an "ET" of some thing special. Thats all I am saying. Its a good tool, but you have to be a superb stockmant to undertand what kind of female needs to be used. Every body "thinks" they have the great female. Just cause she brought a bunch of coin, does not make her great.
	DonD1	Posted 06/06/12 08:30AM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Happened to look at the web page of some friends that have a lot bigger flock than I do, and who have been doing ET. They have listed their donor ewes on the web page, (see http://www.deebrothers.com/Donors.htm) I know Wheatons do to, and I'm sure many others do. The Dee Brothers donor ewes in my opinion are excellent donor type ewes. They are the top proven ewes in their breeding program. So even though they have many daughters and half sisters of these ewes, these are the ones that their taking advantage of ET with. There isn't anything magically good or bad about ET lambs. There's just more of them. In the above example of 25 ET lambs, that are full sibs to the Louisville champ. If most of the siblings of such a lamb are cull quality then I'd throw out that most people ETing wouldn't have flushed that ewe. As most of her lambs previous lambs would have been cull quality. The guys I've talked to doing ET (and we have probably at least half a dozen within a few hours of my house), do it to their elite, consistent ewes not the ewe that randomly threw out one super lamb but was on the should probably cull list before that one good lamb showed up. It's not for everybody as it's expensive and from a practical standpoint you need to be "close enough" to people doing it. With Progressive's new program alone, it's worth people in that area thinking about it. If you have a really tightly grouped set of ewes that are remarkably similar in quality and you literally have no idea which ewes are most likely to give you your best lambs ET wouldn't make much sense. Nor does it make sense if your best ewes best lambs are merely competitive at middle level county fairs. But, if someone has a few really good ewes in their flock and their available ram power (including AI) is such that those ewes normally have very good lambs ET is a way to increase the quality in the flock WITHOUT broadening the gene pool because you bought new ewes to improve the flock. I don't see people routinely keeping every ET ewe lamb. In fact I see the opposite. If they get several ewe lambs from a flush, they keep the best ewes for themselves and then offer for sale most of the other ewe lambs. Re-enforcing the point that those guys using ET are able to improve their quality faster than those that aren't because they have a bigger pool of elite ewe lambs to select their keepers from. There would be nothing wrong with simply keeping all the ewe lambs out of a flush if they were better than your other ewe lambs.
	bigiron59	Posted 06/07/12 09:50AM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I am not going to pick on anyone and I don't have a web site. But IF you have a web site, don't list all you "good" sheep, with decription and "Picture Coming Soon". Some of these guys been going to post picture of "that new buck, or that Flush ewe" and the sheep been dead 3 years.At least with a sale I show up with sheep. even if sale info was not listed. Peeps are promoting offspring of sheep that we have never seen, or going to see, beacuse sire or dam is gone, and still waiting for picture.If that sheep was good enough to flush, I would guess they have a picture somehwere.
	sheep1	Posted 06/07/12 11:18AM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I just cannot see the Progressive thing working that well. Too much risk in hauling them in to have the procedures done, then loading them up and hauling them 5-10 hours to your home or further. Maybe they know something about sheep others don`t. But from what I`ve talked to some big ET people about is the amount of loss coming from stressing the ewes. If you take 20 and get 10 stuck, that`s a big chunk of change, and I would say 50% is going to be good when your hauling them home for hours. Hopefully I`m wrong and this makes sheep better faster. Just my opinion. It may work at 70-90% and be a great idea
	bigiron59	Posted 06/07/12 03:18PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		We will see how many they "produce" for next year. I bet plenty will roll the dice this year. SI would guess will be some good sheep made. But it will be a very small percenatge of what they bred.
	SnarkyArkie	Posted 06/07/12 03:33PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I would be curious to know who the losing bidder to all these progressive genetics outrageous high dollar bids were. I have my own ideas since far more people are talking about them than they are our farm.
	mikey75	Posted 06/07/12 03:46PM  Changed 06/07/12 03:49PM
		It's already been talked about on the Johnson rams. I was standing right next to the guy that was the contending bidder at the divas 52k ram. The scuttlebutt is that one ram that I know of that could bring 100 k at Sedalia. I've heard that 200k was turned down by a breeder for one proven ram.
	SnarkyArkie	Posted 06/07/12 04:19PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		How do you know the contending bidder didn't leave the state with the ram? I dont know how anyone can "know" a ram would bring 100K at Sedalia without it going through the auction. I would need more proof than hearing of a breeder turning down 200K for a single ram. I'm not trying to argue, this is just what goes through my inexperienced mind. When I was a big seller on ebay, some similar tactics I see here mirrors the tactics I've seen on ebay.
	PeteM	Posted 06/07/12 04:45PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Darren, if there is talk now, there will be one close to that at Sedalia, whether it is real or not.
	Kyhampbreeder	Posted 06/07/12 04:49PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
	Administrator	No Darren that was real money by the contending bidder. People "know" a ram might bring 100K because partnerships are in place and financing locked in. Turning down 200K wouldn't surprise me at all. I have seen some significant money change hands and some flat refusals to sell at six figures.
	SnarkyArkie	Posted 06/07/12 05:24PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Pete, I don't know whats real money in livestock sales. I DO know whats real in Ebay world. Granted they are 2 totally different animals, but the tactics I have known to be fake or marketing schemes on Ebay are incredibly similar to what I see here which makes it hard for me to differentiate the 2. For me, 200K would pay off my house. That's a 24 year note one animal can get rid of, its gone. Especially if I bred it and still had the stock to make it again. 100K at Sedalia, maybe, but you still need another bidder to get it there which has long been debated on ebay of whether the seller was shilling the bids. Maybe a difference is Ebay is not as small as the sheep breeding world so less sheep sellers can get away with those tactics and more sheep buyers have intimate knowledge of some of the sales.
	DonD1	Posted 06/07/12 06:21PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I don't have anyway of knowing how real this money is. To backup Darren's point that it COULD not all be what it seems, here's a link to a Minneapolis antique boat auction where people were accused of playing inappropriate games to inflate the prices. http://www.startribune.com/local/west/157378475.html This link won't be valid for that much longer. I watched that $52K ram to up that high too. There was for sure a well known, well funded person that chased the bid that high. I think I put on another thread that the 3rd and 4th bidders would have made that ram still sell for a lot of money. I also fully expect a $100K price at Sedalia. At Men of Influence sale it was pretty obvious which ram had the most interest ahead of time but there weren't that many rams. Will be interesting to see at Sedalia if it's that obvious who the favorite would be.
	af32198	Posted 06/07/12 06:35PM  Changed 03/23/13 10:59PM
	SnarkyArkie	Posted 06/07/12 06:45PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Don, a similar experience I thought of was a seller was selling a custom dining table for 10K. He offered one of the bidders 8 matching chairs and other items not listed in the auction and unkown to everyone else bidding, if the buyer agreed to up the price to 17K. When ellerbrocks ram(table) sold for 44K at sedalia, I thought surely there's some ewes(chairs) thrown in to get someone to bid that price. Like I said, I don't think like most here so I got to interpret it how I see it.
	Kyhampbreeder	Posted 06/07/12 08:00PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
	Administrator	I didn't mean that EVERY high seller eas as published. Just pointing out people do pay that much.
	DonD1	Posted 06/07/12 08:20PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Darren, once again I don't have any direct knowledge for these really high prices for sheep this year on how real they are. A few years ago when some of the online sales prices started getting higher (but not like this year), I had a friend tell me specifically on a couple of sales that he didn't think they were real money. I told him that in four of those sales I was pretty sure it was real money as I knew who the runner up bidder was and on each sale they had chased the top ewe higher than the previous and still hadn't bought one. So, if it wasn't real money four sales in a row screwed themselves on four real bids. When we bought the high seller ewe at Ellerbrocks sale in 2006 I'm 100% sure it was all real money but now that kind of money gets you a middle price ewe. A few years later I chased the high selling ewe at their sale way past what I had any business doing and wasn't even the runner up bidder. I'm pretty sure that was real money then too.
	sheep1	Posted 06/08/12 09:22PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		af32198, I loved your quote. It`s quickly become a "win or don`t play" type "game" and make no mistake, for everyone except the breeder, it`s a game. It could be halted tomorrow by some technicality or law coming out of DC. Pretty scary that with Rams bringing that much money, the wethers will have to bring a ton as well. Are they that much better Did they jump 40K-50K worth of quality in a year or two?? Sure wasn`t much in between on prices
	OhioChick	Posted 06/09/12 09:31AM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I heard that the runner up bidder on all the PG sheep was a 1 large breeder from Iowa. For all the apparent lost attempts one may consider some unclear motives? Clear to some. Costly to others.
	DonD1	Posted 06/09/12 10:03AM  Changed 06/09/12 10:03AM
		Tyson Rule was the runner up bidder at the Men of Influence sale. Several of us personally watched that. Johnson sale was an on-line sale. Do you know the ID's of the bidder numbers? I don't have the detailed bid results from the Johnson or Wheaton sale but I don't recall the runner up bidder numbers being the same. I'm sure someone else on-line has a better recollection of that. When you look at the number of $10K+ ewe lambs and wethers sold this year. $50K+ ram prices are not as silly as they seem. (10K wether prices might be, but the point is they are here.) Sheep1 - eventually all bubbles burst. Those playing this game with leveraged money are eventually going to be hurting.
	redroper	Posted 06/09/12 11:51AM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I would say his "unclear motives" were to add those breeding individuals to his program. If you look at his program, you can see why he would be willing to invest in them as they compliment what he is already doing.
	bigiron59	Posted 06/09/12 12:48PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		You know I don't worry to much about any of these prices. Real or not. Most of us can only asspire to sell one for anything like that. And "hurt" a real bidder. If some clown is willing to lay down 75000 for an unproven ram. Who care, as long as his money is good. The real fool is anyone who turned down 200 k for a proven ram. With AI in private flocks as good as it it. That was a fool. I don't care who it was. I would dobt that that was true. Rumuors are funny that way. Guys do not get rich making big mistakes. Is some of this crazy. yep. They will get flushed out. Turning down 200 k for a ram. I call BS. NO sane business man would do that. They would collect him, freeze him , take an ear tag to possibly clone him, and sell him. If the fools ego was that big, he will fall with the rest.
	Kyhampbreeder	Posted 06/09/12 02:10PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
	Administrator	Has a clone ever worked ? Miller tried it and Hancock tried it. Don't think either got more than an added expense. I can see a big time breeder turning down BIG money. Protects home advantage. Sell ten sons @ 10K + a bunch of high $ wethers + a set of great ewe lambs and he's even. Still has the buck to use to repeat the process. Guys I know turning down big money are very sane.
	SnarkyArkie	Posted 06/09/12 02:12PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I agree Bigiron…there are days that 200K might buy my kids. I have heard of many instances of people "saying" or "hearing" or "knowing" of turning down pretty large figures when we have inquired about rams. One said he was offered 30K for one ram one year but turned it down and sold the very next year for 1300. The only way I could fathom someone turning down big coin is to actually see someone flashing cash and the ram owner saying no. Still I don't know it doesn't happen other than KY's word which is pretty good to go by IMO, but it is just hard to imagine someone would turn that down. My wife likes to call us CG Farms, but I like to think of us more like "Everything has a price Farms".
	SnarkyArkie	Posted 06/09/12 02:30PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		And again, I can't say it didn't happen and most likely my inexperience and time in the business makes me see it differently than those who have been doing this for generations. But the way I see it is the risk of the 200K ram dying a few months after the offer is enough risk for me to take the money and run. To me its 50/50 chance you can sell stud bucks and wethers and ewes or you can pay 44K for a ram and it breeds a few ewes and dies. I guess that really just stays on my mind when buying rams.
	bigiron59	Posted 06/09/12 02:55PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Might be KY, but as Snarkie says, ram dies, could would have should have. Buyers are a fickle crowd. Whos hot this year may not be hot next year. That 200 k ram could be a sale barn cull at 40 cent a pound in 2 years. Then waht. All the big breeders been hot and then cold. over time. had them lined up to buy , got a bucnh of bad checks, couple year later, still selling, but not at the level they were. Fundamental investmant principle. buy low, sell high. Most allways sell on down market after fear comes into play. If this guy turned down 200 k, he will reget it some day.
	DonD1	Posted 06/09/12 03:51PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		The guy that really wins on big prices for rams is Kyle Schmillen, . I'm pretty confident that almost all rams being sold for >10K are insured. I know my personal threshold for insuring a ram is quite a bit less than that. Insurance isn't going to protect you in the event you get poor lambs but it does protect you if he comes home and dies.
	Kyhampbreeder	Posted 06/09/12 06:21PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
	Administrator	Don you are a business man with a different perspective. I'd be more confident from my view that few rams are insured with notable exceptions where maybe they are expected to die ?
	OG	Posted 06/09/12 07:14PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I've got to agree with Ky. on this one. The first high dollar (for me) ram that I purchased(2500.00) at the time, around 1983,I insured, then I got to calculating the cost of insurance and said to myself "the premium will help pay for the next purchase" and that was the only ram I ever insured...Now, I have know of several Texas wether feeding families with multiple high dollar wethers in their pen that would insure one or two figuring they all wouldn't turn out to be barn burners and by some strange twist of fate the ones that weren't competitive died...Just luck of being a Texan I guess(wink wink)...OG
	DonD1	Posted 06/09/12 08:39PM  Changed 06/09/12 08:45PM
		Gail and Larry, You might be right and a couple years ago I wouldn't have made the statement that many of these expensive rams are insured. But, I've watched enough applications get filled out, checks written, been required to insure rams in partnerships, had guys tell me how much they had insured a dead rams for and had other insight into the process that I've changed my opinion. Although, I'd agree there are some gamblers not insuring their expensive rams. The businessman in me would hope those rams that are bought with borrowed money are all insured. But if that logic prevailed we wouldn't have as many foreclosures and other credit problems in the world today.
	sheep1	Posted 06/09/12 10:23PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		DonD1, I agree, all bubbles do burst eventually. I hope for the people that are in it, they don`t fall to hard. The ones that have had staying power for years should be fine. It`s the newer guys dropping serious coin on sometimes unproven rams that may get caught in that bubble. I will say that it`s killed the number of sheep feeders. Seems that breeders have to raise a better ones, as opposed to a large number of decent ones as no one wants a "project" any longer. They all want a winner, as do I, I`m just not going to do like the people in Washington do, Spend money I do not have. lol
	mikey75	Posted 06/09/12 10:30PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Cloneing doesn't work. It costs a little shy of 30k for cattle but if you get feet on the ground they don't produce exactly like the genetic match.
	SnarkyArkie	Posted 06/09/12 11:54PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I have filled out the application twice but never sent them in. Insurance is crazy high and me being the suspicous person I am, I thought "why is Kyle Schmillen the only guy selling insurance for rams". Just seemed if it was in high demand, more insurance people would be insuring show stock. Basically what we have decided was to throw what money we can at it we can afford to lose and if we hit a home run…awesome. If not and we have to cut our losses…so be it. With outside jobs, it is easier for us to walk away from the sheep business than the people the just dropped 200K in 3 rams with no mass demand for these rams.
	SnarkyArkie	Posted 06/09/12 11:54PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I have filled out the application twice but never sent them in. Insurance is crazy high and me being the suspicous person I am, I thought "why is Kyle Schmillen the only guy selling insurance for rams". Just seemed if it was in high demand, more insurance people would be insuring show stock. Basically what we have decided was to throw what money we can at it we can afford to lose and if we hit a home run…awesome. If not and we have to cut our losses…so be it. With outside jobs, it is easier for us to walk away from the sheep business than the people the just dropped 200K in 3 rams with no mass demand for these rams.
	farmtown8kid	Posted 06/10/12 12:47AM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Whoever says cloning doesn't produce results should check out Lautner Farms. http://www.lautnerfarms.com/sires.html They somehow thought that it worked well enough to have cloned Heatwave 15 times before he died. I'm fairly certain that they would have realized in the 5 or 6 years they were cloning him that they weren't getting the desired results and would have stopped otherwise.
	Kyhampbreeder	Posted 06/10/12 08:05AM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
	Administrator	Funny looking rams there! Sire list looks like 85% of the available AI studs.
	redroper	Posted 06/10/12 08:17AM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I would be more inclined to clone a great ewe vs a ram. With seman collection, you can get a seemingly endless supply of the real thing. Just a semi random thought.
	DonD1	Posted 06/10/12 12:02PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Darren, as a general rule I too am skeptical if there are few suppliers. However, in our industry I think we also need to realize how large we aren't. There are multiple companies that insure other species. Wasn't that long ago that it was not very common knowledge where you could even buy ram insurance. From a risk stand point though you've actually exactly defined a very appropriate assessment of if you should insure something. If you can afford to lose the investment then the insurance may not be getting you anything. Insurance companies know what they are doing and the rate you pay is high enough for them to pay claims and make money. In the long run, "self insuring" is less costly. Self insuring is a fancy way of saying you don't have insurance. The company that used to own my company officially used that term. As I stated before, if someone is having to borrow to pay for a ram, from a business standpoint it doesn't make sense to not insure as you didn't have the money to lose in the first place. For self financed purchases that line is in a different place for different people. In my mind once you get into the several thousand dollars I've crossed the line of "fun money" and I literally want to hedge the bet. It's not hard to come up with a fairly long list of expensive rams have died before they had any lambs on the ground. Once lambs appear the algorithim changes greatly too. Some rams suddenly become not worth insuring and a very select few become worth it. While I think a lot of these expensive rams are initially insured, I also think the renewal rate drops way down even if the owners like the ram as then they have sons around.
	hmm	Posted 06/10/12 12:17PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		There have been hundreds of attempts to clone Heatwave- only 15 of them made it as far as semen collection, and most didn't make it more than a year at stud. I have insured my rams before- and after the bucks get too old to insure anymore- 6 years through my agency-- it becomes a thought of "I hope he hurry ups and dies".
	MMLB	Posted 06/10/12 01:16PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Pay 20,000 for a buck lamb in March. Get him home in April. He dies in June.... Insured- you get to go to Sedalia with 20,000 to replace him. Uninsured- you get to watch everyone spend 20,000 on the one you want while you are "settling" for the $2,500 sheep because that's all you could scrape together and you have convinced yourself he is a sleeper but in reality he just isn't that good and you've thrown an entire year of lamb crop down the drain all so you could save the 12% insurance fee... No brainer... If you can't sell 1 lamb for enough to cover the insurance cost then you spent too much on the ram. If you can't sell 6 lambs to cover the total cost of the ram then you spent to much on the ram.
	SnarkyArkie	Posted 06/10/12 01:55PM  Changed 06/10/12 02:08PM
		Fuzzy math edit...back to fishing.
	bigiron59	Posted 06/10/12 01:55PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		MMLB, for a novice, you have a lot of interesting advice. As far as cloneing. I drive by Trans ovas barns every week. probaly 200 of them or more running around for various clients. And most are not there. These would be the ones that priced based on delivery of live clone calve at weaning. Most do not want to pay for that so take the recipts home, and calve them themselves. The company that I used to work for had transova put in up to 7500 clones a year. Plenty of clones out there, you just don't know about them.
	DonD1	Posted 06/10/12 02:00PM  Changed 06/10/12 02:17PM
		Darren, I think you're off by an order of magnitude on the cost of insurance. $5000 * .12 = $600 * 3/4 = $540. I sure as heck wouldn't be paying 120% to insure something.
	SnarkyArkie	Posted 06/10/12 02:12PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Thought there was something wrong with that picture. Got walleye on my mind.
	sheep1	Posted 06/10/12 09:13PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I`m with DonD1. Unless your planning to "recover" the insurance on your own already, I don`t see the cost being worth the benefits at that price. Then again, I`m not paying the kind of money for a Ram either. My question is, what constitutes a claim? Sterility? Just Death? Injury? Be interesting to hear from someone who has purchased insurance and/or filed a claim. Just wondering how it paid out and if it were a problem collecting. Say you have a wether you insure, your tracking it, dog bites into it`s leg, or it breaks it`s leg or whatever, does insurance cover it? Does it just have to be death? Just curious as to the benefits versus the cost?
	DonD1	Posted 06/10/12 09:35PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		If it was obvious that this thread was about insurance Kyle would probably weigh in. From the new data he sent out to potential buyers. (Some of this differs from my above opinion as this is new data) - Rams can only now be insured through 2 years age - Ewes through 4 years age - Max insurance appears to be $10,000. - Time periods 1, 3, 6, 12 months - Insuring an animal requires DNA sample and vet inspection - Description is a "full mortality" - Pretty sure it's not a animal "health insurance" as in you don't collect unless the said animal dies and then I presume someone other than the beneficiary will be collecting DNA from the dead animal in order to get a claim paid
	bigiron59	Posted 06/10/12 09:48PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Evidently were some problems, so now must jump through more hoops to collect.
	SnarkyArkie	Posted 06/10/12 10:17PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		When we looked into it, the first time was with maybe colonial or liberty...one that was mentioned here a few years back. It was pricey even more so than what Kyle offered. In fact it was astronomical and more like my fuzzy math from earlier where around a years time, the insurance would pay for the 1500 ram we were looking to insure. And the only way to collect was through necropsy and it had to be decided by the claims dept. if the death was covered. I remember thinking short of a lightning strike, we ain't gettin our money back. Kyle we looked at last year and his prices were reasonable and I don't really remember why we didn't bother sending in the aps. Probably boils down to the discussions on here about insurance. It has never been a popular choice.
	mikey75	Posted 06/10/12 10:28PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Best insurance is semen.....
	hmm	Posted 06/10/12 11:53PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		through country, we can insure 12% up until 6 yrs of age.. life ins... that animal dies-- you collect. nothing less. autopsy done on it.
	TwoWillowJDM	Posted 06/12/12 12:07PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		hmm - Can you please send forward me more info on your insurance policies. John john@twowillow.com
	TO6	Posted 06/12/12 01:18PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I insure rams through Grange Insurance for "accidental death"; head caught in fence, fighting with another ram, kid left the trailer door open, etc., very reasonable rates. Never had to deal with collecting a claim, so I don't know how that would go, it might not be so good a deal.
	hmm	Posted 06/12/12 01:50PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I've collected in on claims before... I don't need to send you anything-- just contact your local Country Insurance (previously used to be Country Companies) rep-- and ask about their livestock mortality policy. Or, I'm sure you could google it. Country is the agency that works basically in conjunction with Farm Bureau. If you still can't get anything-- I'll contact my rep- and get back with you.
	Kyhampbreeder	Posted 06/12/12 01:52PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
	Administrator	Todd , ALL insurance is good till a claim. That's the seperation from mental comfort to fiscal comfort. Never insured one and have lost a few rather pricey bucks.
	TwoWillowJDM	Posted 06/12/12 03:42PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Hmm - Thanks for the info. I thought from your previous post you were selling Insurance. Just so happens today I have been requesting quotes for farm & mortality insurance. I was a bit surprised how far the discussion on ET has transpired since I was last on My Lamb. It caught my attention to say the least.
	hmm	Posted 06/13/12 08:48AM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I've insured probably 20 sheep over the course of time- especially when we were showing pretty hard. I've collected either two, or three times... The two I remember was a ewe that prolapsed while lambing as a 4 year old, and a 6 month old ram lamb that got stones.
	SHADOWRAN	Posted 06/13/12 10:15AM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Never could find insurance for sheep around here, wish they did I would have used it once or twice. I wonder why the auction sites don't make the buyers known? It would help people from running sheep up and people would know where their next lamb might come from. At a live auction all you have to do is watch to see who bought that $200,000 ram. Oh did I open another can? jim
	Kyhampbreeder	Posted 06/13/12 12:58PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
	Administrator	No you didn't Jim. You're mistaken about live auctions too. I've bought quite a number of sheep at live auctions for other people. Quite certain I'm not the only one.
	SHADOWRAN	Posted 06/13/12 01:04PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		sure but at least a face with the buy
	Chuckles450	Posted 06/13/12 02:15PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		SHADOW has an excellent point IMO. It would make things a whole lot more interesting to know who you're bidding against and where they're going.
	DonD1	Posted 06/13/12 02:27PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Chuckles you and Jim must be way more aware of whose bidding at an auction that I am. If the bidding gets drawn out and goes back and forth a few times I usually know who I bid against but a lot of times bidding goes so fast I don't know who most of the other bidders are. I like like being able to look at an online sale bids just after it got done to see what else a buyer bought and what else they were chasing.
	bigiron59	Posted 06/13/12 02:40PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I would agree with Don. At Sedalia at least. The sale podium is surrounded by buyers. They have 2 ring guys out front,at least 3 in the podium facing sideways and backwards. Sometimes I think the bid is being pulled from the ceiling, plus they will be taking internet bids at the same time as well. Plus with the "partnerships" on rams, you never really know who you are bidding agianst. At least Mead is not shy about sending out results with who bought them and how much they brought. Like its a secret anyway. That is the job of a good auctioneer, fast paced bidding. And they are the best. They might be moving in 250 dollar incremnents, but get the bid moving and they will jump it to 500 or 1000 pretty fast on a good one.Seen that a lot there. They get good auctioneers ,move the sale right along, and get more coin that some buyer thought they were spending, if they were not paying attention.If you are one of those guys that "needs" 2 minutes for each bid, you will not buy sheep their.
	redroper	Posted 06/13/12 02:46PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		From a spectators view point, sure, it would be great to know who is bidding. As a bidder, I would love to know who I am bidding against so I know if they are going to stop soon or if they can push me to point that my credit is at risk. I'm like KY. I have carried multiple bids at sales for other people. Lots of reasons why from they aren't there to they don't want people to see who's doing the actual buying. Part of the game buying at a live auction is staying out of site of the main crowd. I usually stay in eye contact wth the sale manager and have been able to bid where the guy standing next to me doesn't even know I did it, until I pull out my buyers number. Sometimes I can do that without him noticing. It's not hard and there are guys ALOT better at it than me. If you posted buyers names for the online sales 95% of the sheep would be "bought" by someone's 2nd cousin twice removed. Heck, for a 2% handling fee, I'd do it for anyone that would have me.
	SnarkyArkie	Posted 06/13/12 02:52PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		I think the real winner is the feller going to chase after the muskie while the rest of us chase after the sheep these next couple weeks.
	SHADOWRAN	Posted 06/13/12 03:43PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
		Well I have a auctioneers eye, since I am one, so I can spot em fast. I love it so much being in front of the crowd and getting them going its fun to be a bid spotter as well. Funny story 2 years ago I was spotting at our county fair,I was on a cane from a bad foot so I took a Vicodin, ate a donut and coffee and took a 5 hour energy boy I looked like the energizer bunny. jim
	Kyhampbreeder	Posted 06/13/12 04:26PM  Changed 00/00/00 12:00AM
	Administrator	Darren, I'm excited to get up north. Highs in the 70's , lows in the 50's , great friends , usually some big fish and catch up on the Operation Muskie event. Might see some sheep but certainly won't critique their hips, rack and shag ! IMO it's a bad idea to have the buyer numbers tied to a name. Would hurt the actual buyer and seller in many cases. "Tire kickers" want to know for the voyerism thrill I guess.

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